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View Full Version : H.I. Farmers' Market every Friday 8 Am - 12 noon!



Another Texan
05-21-2009, 08:00 PM
At the Holiday Island information center just off Hwy 23N. With each passing week more veggies are coming in, this week look for naturally grown spinach, greens, radishes, lettuce, green onions and strawberries. Starter plants will be available for flower beds, vegetable or herb gardens. Lavender lye soap and cedar birds houses are a couple of homemade/handmade items that will be for sale. Don't miss Smokin' Hillbilly's BBQ, featuring BBQ pork ribs, pulled pork, chicken, and more, a different specialty featured each week.
Fridays 8 AM to Noon

SpikeSilverback
05-22-2009, 11:24 PM
[QUOTE=Another Texan;820258] naturally grown /QUOTE]

What is the definition of "naturally grown"?

Spike

Another Texan
05-23-2009, 12:22 AM
What is your definition?

I cannot speak for all the grower/sellers but to me "naturally grown" means grown without chemical products, ie, insecticides, fungicides, herbicides or fertilizers. This is also what I've heard from several other growers. Plus unless I've missed something, the state of Arkansas does not even offer an organic farm certification and one may not legally represent their produce as organic without a certification.

We, my husband and I, attempt to grow our foods in the most natural way possible. But we're not perfect ~ I brought home some peat which I assumed was totally organic since no other ingredients were listed on the bag. After I'd applied it in a few areas, my husband informed me that he'd heard chemical additives were used to keep the peat fresh or something like that. So I guess I just nullified all that we'd done right for years, ie, using only organic solutions in pest control including, squishing untold unwanted insects by hand plus using our own bunny poop and other natural fertilizers.

I'd suggest to any and all that are truly concerned about what "naturally grown" means ~ ask the folks that actually grow and sell the stuff. Come out to the local farmers' markets, Eureka Springs at Pine Mt Village Tues and Thurs mornings, Holiday Island at the info center off of hwy 23N Fri. mornings or Berryville on the square Sat mornings. All Carroll County markets have rules and operate with Carroll County Fresh guidance.

SpikeSilverback
05-23-2009, 10:04 PM
What is your definition?

Yikes, AT, your response seems a bit testy. There is no definition for "natural". It is complete bullshit unless VERIFIED by the USDA, CNG or Demeter Intl. Anyone can claim anything, but unless it is verified by a
certifiying agency, they are smoking their customers. You wanna make claims, prove it. Show me a certificate.

I cannot speak for all the grower/sellers but to me "naturally grown" means grown without chemical products, ie, insecticides, fungicides, herbicides or fertilizers. This is also what I've heard from several other growers. Plus unless I've missed something, the state of Arkansas does not even offer an organic farm certification and one may not legally represent their produce as organic without a certification.

States don't offer certification (CA excepted). Only the USDA and other orgs. offer and inspects for certification. One can get a USDA cert for organic from the assigned rep outta OKC. Other than that your assumptions are mostly correct. The only fellow I know of that is certified is the frenchman. He had his posted.

I'd suggest to any and all that are truly concerned about what "naturally grown" means ~ ask the folks that actually grow and sell the stuff. Come out to the local farmers' markets, Eureka Springs at Pine Mt Village Tues and Thurs mornings, Holiday Island at the info center off of hwy 23N Fri. mornings or Berryville on the square Sat mornings. All Carroll County markets have rules and operate with Carroll County Fresh guidance.

I did just that.Went to HI to see what was up. Saw this bloke with his wares.
He had this sticker that said "naturally grown". He has admitted on this forum that he didn't think much of organic. He admitted on this forum that he used fungicides. His sticker is pure bullshit. Unless he has a bona fide, he is smoking his customers.

Spike

DaBee
05-23-2009, 11:16 PM
How can one get a bona fide (I assume you mean organic certification) if it is not offered in this state? Did you talk to this vendor about him "smoking" his customers, Spike?

mtnviewsteve
05-24-2009, 12:07 AM
:breakdance:
~Hey spike "What do ya' like??"~ :eek:
http://attra.ncat.org/sorg/ar/certified.html
:cool:

DaBee
05-24-2009, 06:54 AM
That's right, sTeVeObRo. I remember seeing the Certified Organic sticker on different items at ONG in F'ville. Also, Waterfall Hollow Organic Beef is one of my neighbors in SW Carroll County.
I remember the woman from Oklahoma that is heading up either the Tulsa or OKC area Farmer's Market. She spoke at the CC Fresh Annual Meeting several months ago. I know that the Grown Naturally program isn't in Arkansas yet, but it is in Oklahoma and it seems they spoke of efforts to bring it here. Also, I don't believe that just because one sells his produce at our local Farmer's Markets necessarily means that it is "naturally grown" or "organic". Like AT said, and I apply this to myself also, I do my best to make sure that everything to do with my garden is natural and organic, but something could possibly slip in that is not. Does this nullify everything I've done thus far to maintain my high integrity?
This is what "Certified Naturally Grown" is about:

Thanks for visiting Certified Naturally Grown, a non-profit alternative certification program tailored for small-scale, direct-market farmers using natural methods.

Nearly 500 farmers from 47 states are enrolled to use the Certified Naturally Grown label.

When USDA's Organic program was implemented in 2002, many farms earning more than $5,000 per year were forced to make a difficult choice: either pay high certification fees and complete mounds of paperwork to become Certified Organic, or else give up using the word "organic" to describe their produce and/or livestock.

Believing that neither choice was very attractive, some farmers created Certified Naturally Grown to provide an alternative way to assure their customers that they observed strict growing practices. CNG strives to strengthen the organic movement by removing financial barriers to certification that tend to exclude smaller direct-market farms, while preserving high standards for natural production methods.

CNG's Certification Standards are based on the highest principles and ideals of organic farming. CNG's Program Requirements are reasonable and affordable, and many farmers find the inspection process itself a valuable learning experience.

CNG's Certification Standards take as their starting point the USDA Organic Standards, but Certified Naturally Grown is an independent program not accredited by or in any way affiliated with USDA's National Organic Program.

CNG is nationally recognized and endorsed, and it thrives because of enormous volunteer efforts. If you'd like to help out, visit our help wanted page.

CNG is a grassroots effort that runs primarily on free-will donations from farmers and supporters. Please join the small farms at the heart of the movement and make a donation today!
www.naturallygrown.org

Another Texan
05-24-2009, 07:31 AM
I did just that.Went to HI to see what was up. Saw this bloke with his wares.
He had this sticker that said "naturally grown". He has admitted on this forum that he didn't think much of organic. He admitted on this forum that he used fungicides. His sticker is pure bullshit. Unless he has a bona fide, he is smoking his customers.

Spike

Very interesting, care to share which of the vendors at the H.I. farmers' market also posts on this forum. I'm acquainted with most of the vendors at the H.I. market and didn't realize any were on Geekfest, I always like meeting and learning about other 'festers.

Murphette
05-24-2009, 12:36 PM
Does the HI Farmer's Market have some standard of "natural" Or does it require vendors to be certified as natural by some organization? If so, which organization? If not, "natural" means.... what? Non-commercially grown?

Nita
05-24-2009, 04:09 PM
I don't know what each vendor considers "natural".

I finally remembered our market here in HI - and chose
to purchase from those that I knew and trusted. Got
wonderful strawberries. Got there to late to get lettuce
from my favorite vendor (AT's farmer). I may be crazy but
figure whatever I can purchase at the local farmer's market
is as "good" and much fresher than anything I can purchase
someplace else.

Bill Behrens
05-24-2009, 05:12 PM
Just what is it that a farmers market vendor might be selling that people might be concerned about? If you buy produce from the grocery store I'm hoping everyone washes it. I seriously dout anybody around here is using their septic tank contents as fertilizer...
But then again might the septic tank contents be considered organic?
While a bag of 5-10-5 fertilizer spred on the garden is Taboo

Another Texan
05-24-2009, 05:35 PM
Does the HI Farmer's Market have some standard of "natural" Or does it require vendors to be certified as natural by some organization? If so, which organization? If not, "natural" means.... what? Non-commercially grown?
No, there is no written standard. No growers are required to be certified by any organization. They are expected to be honest and the products they sell are to be from the local area meaning the counties adjacent to Carroll County both in AR and MO.

Apparently I caused some confusion as to what can be found at the H.I. Famers' market. I did not intend for it to be thought that only organic or naturally grown products were available.

For last Friday's market I wrote ...
"this week look for naturally grown spinach, greens, radishes, lettuce, green onions and strawberries" I included those items because I knew they were being brought by vendors that do whatever possible to grow without chemicals and are, what most would consider, organic farmers/gardeners even if they haven't spent thousands of dollars bringing in an organic certification inspector from another state.

Another Texan
05-24-2009, 05:49 PM
I did just that.Went to HI to see what was up. Saw this bloke with his wares.
He had this sticker that said "naturally grown". He has admitted on this forum that he didn't think much of organic. He admitted on this forum that he used fungicides. His sticker is pure bullshit. Unless he has a bona fide, he is smoking his customers.

Spike

Spike again I will ask you to share who you are talking about. I know of two growers that have posted in this section of Geekfest that have sold at farmers' markets, that would be Bill "loves to flip the bird" Behrens and Southwindcome. To the best of my knowledge neither have sold at the H.I. farmers' market although they are both welcome to as they are growers within the local area. There is no requirement that they be chemical free.

Spike I'm wondering if that encounter you describe took place somewhere other than the H.I. farmers' market.

Bill Behrens
05-24-2009, 08:22 PM
Correction here:
I have never sold at a farmers market in Arkansas.
I have sold flower bulbs at the Flower and Garden show for the past 2 years.
I am currently working to sell my garden produce thru a SHARE program but I am not looking for any new customers at this time.

Another Texan
05-24-2009, 08:31 PM
Please excuse the mistake. I thought the Flower and Garden sale was part of the Berryville Farmers' Market.

Murphette
05-24-2009, 09:02 PM
No, there is no written standard. No growers are required to be certified by any organization. They are expected to be honest and the products they sell are to be from the local area meaning the counties adjacent to Carroll County both in AR and MO.

Apparently I caused some confusion as to what can be found at the H.I. Famers' market. I did not intend for it to be thought that only organic or naturally grown products were available.

For last Friday's market I wrote ...
"this week look for naturally grown spinach, greens, radishes, lettuce, green onions and strawberries" I included those items because I knew they were being brought by vendors that do whatever possible to grow without chemicals and are, what most would consider, organic farmers/gardeners even if they haven't spent thousands of dollars bringing in an organic certification inspector from another state.

No confusion Tex, the produce sounds lovely and thanks for the info.

If "natural" is important to patrons of the Market, it would be scarily easy to ruin a vendors business by casting aspersions. Since one person's best efforts at natural might be horticultural heresy to another, it seems fair to ask what the standards are.

I'd hope Spike would be more specific. If he's aiming at Bill, we'd rather that others aren't accidently be painted with the same brush. Outing us isn't necessary anyway; we don't claim organic produce and we haven't sold any at Farmer's Markets. We are content to eat food from our garden that is just as dangerous as our grandmothers grew.

DaBee
05-24-2009, 09:21 PM
Has anyone had the pleasure of meeting Spike face to face?

mtnviewsteve
05-24-2009, 09:28 PM
:cool:
~Sustainability is "about making the best outta' what ya' got"~NOT about living up to someone's else's expectations~Let's celebrate ALL our accomplishments, no matter how!!
:cool:

Murphette
05-25-2009, 06:49 PM
:cool:
~Sustainability is "about making the best outta' what ya' got"~NOT about living up to someone's else's expectations~Let's celebrate ALL our accomplishments, no matter how!!
:cool:

Wow, that's the perfect way to put it!

Southwindcome
05-27-2009, 05:59 AM
"Natural" is generic and means whatever you want it to mean. "Certified organic" means something very specific.

I think if you're going to accuse a grower of being impure (and therefore causing him the risk of monetary harm) , you need to establish that what he's doing will cause harm to his customers. If you accuse someone here of "using fungicides," I think you should tell us which fungicide and include a pdf of the label so that we can decide on the hazards ourselves. For the most part fungicides are harmless once dried. It's damn hard to grow tomatoes here in the subtropics without use of a fungicide. If it's important to you, there are effective "certified organic" fungicides.

I think assuming the role of "natural policeman" at farmer's markets is shameful activity, Spike. It's terribly presumptuous of you to judge us. You announced to the world earlier that I would be selling useless and unhealthy plants at the farmer's market. I nevertheless sold about 1200 plants. They're looking damn good in my garden and I hope they're doing well in everyone else's.

charlieschimes
05-27-2009, 07:40 AM
I don't know about other growers but there are NO synthetic pesticides or fungicides used on the vegetables I grow and the ones I use are naturally occurring. I fertilize with fish oil and compost. As a caveat I do grow mine in a greenhouse with screened in sides and door. Also, I don't sell to others.

When I need to control insects I use solutions made from the Chrysanthemum which breaks down in the sun and is not harmful to humans or our water supply. For other plants I use Bacillus Thuringiensis, a bacteria that is found in the stomachs of most mammals including humans but is deadly to caterpillars. It also breaks down very quickly and leaves no residue and is naturally occurring. For thrip's and aphids I use garlic spray made from boiled garlic and water and I also use yellow flypaper (the yellow attracts insects).

My tomato's are always blemish free too.

The down side to using these things is the number of times you have to reapply until the pest is under control. It may be daily for a week or even a month.

DaBee
05-27-2009, 07:52 AM
I think assuming the role of "natural policeman" at farmer's markets is shameful activity, Spike. It's terribly presumptuous of you to judge us. You announced to the world earlier that I would be selling useless and unhealthy plants at the farmer's market. I nevertheless sold about 1200 plants. They're looking damn good in my garden and I hope they're doing well in everyone else's.

This is why I asked if anyone has met Spike. Spike is obviously very knowledgable in just about all areas of agriculture. But, like in other Sock Puppets that we have/had on GF, they spit venom and then run and hide. Instead of working with us, they become destructive and mean. It doesn't have to be this way. Why don't you, Spike, just carry on a dialogue and also don't just throw accusation out without merit, in order that we can deal with them in a fair way.

Southwindcome
05-27-2009, 08:33 AM
I don't know about other growers but there are NO synthetic pesticides or fungicides used on the vegetables I grow and the ones I use are naturally occurring. I fertilize with fish oil and compost.

Explain to me what is necessarily harmful about synthetic pesticides. I'm talking about off-label harmful. Potential harm is always clearly stated on the label. Is it legitimate to generalize about the entire industry? And what is necessarily safe about "naturally occurring?" Curare is naturally occurring. Poison ivy is naturally occurring. The bugs that eat my vegetables are naturally occurring. Perhaps in the Buddhist tradition I should let them live. What possible harm could I cause should I choose to side-dress my tomatoes with manufactured fertilizer?

Broad brush condemnations trouble me.

My garden is damn near organic. Close enough for me to proudly sell anything I grow. I strongly believe that the almost religious zeal for everything organic is misplaced enthusiasm--that it is as easy to ascribe harm from certified organic vegetables as it is from non-certified organic vegetables. I guarantee the salmonella outbreaks from spinach and peppers came from totally organic sources.

I believe there is a new school of thought called "Homeopathic Horticulture." (I just made that up.) Homeopathic horticulturists believe that an undetectable quantity of a substance not as yet proven harmful can poison an entire truckload of vegetables. All I can say is prove your case.

IceChick
05-27-2009, 08:53 AM
Isn't the requirement for USDA status as organic, a garden that has been farmed for at least 3 years? Hope I said that right.

DaBee
05-27-2009, 09:18 AM
SWC!!!.....and to think; it's in our own back yard!


Arkansas Scientists Develop Holistic System for Organic Production

Last Updated: June 05, 2008 Related resource areas: Organic Agriculture

A horticulture professor called it ‘horticulture homeopathy’.

Released May 21, 2008

FAYETTEVILLE, Ark. – An integrated management approach to organic horticulture requires a new way of looking at fruit and vegetable production, according to scientists at the University of Arkansas System’s Division of Agriculture.

“It’s a very holistic system that I like to call ‘horticulture homeopathy’,” said Curt Rom, professor of horticulture.

Extension horticulturalist Elena Garcia led two two-day workshops for county extension agents in May to share what she, Rom and other scientists have learned from comprehensive research programs at the Arkansas Agricultural Experiment Station, USDA and land grant university systems in other states. The training sessions are part of the Arkansas research and extension program designed to move new science-based information directly to organic fruit and vegetable producers.

Rom leads a research team in two projects with USDA funding through the Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) Southern Region. “Best Management Practices for Organic Orchards” seeks to develop effective management of soil quality and pest control that not only stay within USDA guidelines for organic production, but also are based on long-range goals for sustaining profitable agricultural production.

A second project, “Off-Season Organic Berry Production using High Tunnels,” is a collaborative project with the University of Georgia. Growing berries under the shelter of translucent fabric tunnels protects them from cooler temperatures and harsh weather in order to begin the production season earlier and extend it later. Arkansas researchers are working with blackberries and raspberries; Georgia scientists are working with blueberries.

Garcia leads a Southern SARE-funded training program, “Building Organic Horticulture Extension Training Capacity in the Southeast,” in cooperation with U of A Pine Bluff and land grant universities in South Carolina, North Carolina and Alabama. She said the research and extension programs work hand-in-hand.

“It’s an integrated organic program to develop new science and technology and get that information to growers as it develops,” Rom said.

Rom and Garcia said they have come to view the organic system holistically in the sense that everything is connected and soil quality is the crux.

“You can’t just look at how much nitrogen is needed to maximize yield,” Garcia said. “You have to look at how that added nitrogen will affect disease or pest control.”

Rom said the system requires planning farther in advance than traditional agricultural systems.

“This is not just problem management,” Rom said. “It’s problem avoidance. We’re looking at how to make decisions now that prevent soil fertility or pest control problems from occurring later on. Management practices have to be scheduled ahead for multiple years in order to sustain soil and avoid pests or diseases.”

Rom said such an integrated approach requires the integration of many disciplines. The horticulture scientists include Rom, Garcia and research technicians Heather Friedrich and Jason McAfee. Collaborators in the Division of Agriculture include entomologist Donn Johnson, agricultural economist Jennie Popp, soil scientist Mary Savin and plant pathologist Terry Kirkpatrick.

ESweekender
05-27-2009, 10:33 AM
All I know is I have a ridiculous amount of stuff growing in my garden, no idea what to do with it and as of yet, have not used anything besides water out there. Although, I plan to take pics of a plant (my greenbean bushes I think - have to check my diagram) that are getting holes in the leaves. I assume some sort of pest.

Southwindcome
05-27-2009, 10:39 AM
Deb, their effort is righteous, but their nomenclature is silly and disparages their work. If there was no placebo effect, there would be no homeopathic remedies. I'll offer one citation. Google "homeopathy placebo" for more. There's one interesting research report from The Lancet. But first go here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

DaBee
05-27-2009, 03:18 PM
All I know is I have a ridiculous amount of stuff growing in my garden, no idea what to do with it and as of yet, have not used anything besides water out there. Although, I plan to take pics of a plant (my greenbean bushes I think - have to check my diagram) that are getting holes in the leaves. I assume some sort of pest.

Suggested plan, Amy: Eat the stuff out of your garden. Share what you can't eat and if noone wants your stuff, then blanch and freeze it.

PMilam
05-27-2009, 09:49 PM
"their nomenclature is silly and disparages their work." huh?

DaBee
05-27-2009, 10:21 PM
I was really groovin' on their their nomenclature, actually. Especially liked their study of disparages in a parage tree.

Southwindcome
05-28-2009, 04:26 AM
"their nomenclature is silly and disparages their work." huh?

When a scientist describes his work as "homeopathy" he loses credibility.

DaBee
05-28-2009, 06:47 AM
Wish it weren't true, but even Wikipedia says that most folks think of homeopathy as pseudoscience and quackery.

Bill Behrens
05-30-2009, 08:06 AM
It gives a whole new meaning to the word "Homophobia"