uneasy

[psycho therapist]

Please understand I am not flaming anyone, nor do I wish to be flamed. However, if my understanding of the chronology of events is correct, the following makes me somewhat uneasy. I welcome the input of anyone who would attempt to help me make some sense of all of this:

1. In response to a query including a question regarding the safety of flying, a poster submits the opinion that it is not safe to fly. This, taken out of context and added to another comment, makes another poster (apparently a pilot?) so upset that he reports poster #1 to the local police force and the board meister.
2. A few days later a plane crash occurs, virtually in Eureka Springs' back yard, which claims the life of a prominent and cherished local man.
3. Within a day or two of event #2, the director of a local children's association is soliciting aerial rides for her clients from poster #2.

I believe I would be extremely hesitant to send my children on an aerial joyride with the specter of recent events haunting my mind. How did event #2 transpire if indeed it is safe to fly? What guarantee exists that such a disaster would not occur with a plane full of children? My children are irreplaceable. Even if they wanted to, I am not sure I would allow them to fly simply so that they could have that experience.

I appreciate any nonflammable response.

[Barb Dunnam]

My non flammable response.

King was a fantastic man and a great pilot.
There are less airplane accidents than car accidents. Cars claim more lives far more lives than airplanes.
In order to become a pilot you must go through school and training to do so. Then you must pass numerours tests and a flight physical.
Not so with driving.

In order to work on an aircraft you must have earned an A&P license or its equivalant to perofrm the work you need to do.
This is not easy to get. Then the aircraft must be inspected at regular intervals there aremany conditions which cause an aircraft to be grounded.

Not so with cars.


I have no problem getting in any aircraft in america and flying. Given to what extent they are maintained and the requirements that go with them it is no wonder they are much safer than flying.

As far as the other stuff about police reports etc. It has nothing to do with me or the kids so I have no concern with it either.

I do not however like kids to drive around in cars or take rides. We lose far to many local area teens to alcohol and or vehicle related accidents.
I dont know of any kids we have ever lost to an airplane crash.

[Becky Davis]

One of the most pleasant memories of my life was when as a youngster, I got to take a ride in a helicopter. Wasn't a bit afraid then, would be terrified now.
In anything we do, we never know when a fantastic experience could turn into a nightmare in the blink of an eye.
I believe if a parent feels uncomfortable and doesn't believe the aircraft is safe mechanically or trust the pilot, he should simply say no to letting his child board and fly. I truly believe parents should trust their instincts. Plus a child needs to be mature enough to realize that although the ride is fun, it could be deadly serious and not a place to act silly.
I have only once instance when I feel justified in ridiculing a parent who let his child fly. Remember when that little girl was piloting a plane across country and never made it? What was she, nine or ten?
I am glad I got to make the trip when I was a kid, but the guilt my parents would have had to carry had something gone wrong, would have been unbearable for them. But then again, anything would have caused them pain and guilt, because they were my protectors. Like just going to a football game and some tragedy hit.
It is a difficult decision when to say yes isn't it? It's enough to drive you looney if you let it.

[becsflowers]

Bless your heart, 2 6 pac...
just when someone starts having a good time on GF, here come the crepe hangers.

I am deeply saddened by the loss of a highly respected community member also, he was a good man.
Several of us who regularly post here in Geekland have lost a spouse due to illness or accidents in our young ages. We KNOW what its like to have to cope. And all I can say about my personal experience; its a "time thing".
There are a lot of emotional things going on right now, and this is not the thread to babble on about "senseless unsensitive Geekfest trivial trash", so I guess we'll just start ANOTHER thread, and those who wish to partake in a "tasteless but non-flaming atmosphere and have a little fun with the REST of the human race" can join in or stay in one of the more serious threads.
We are going to have to stick to posting totally tasteless jokes, Martha stewart copycat prison recipes, and concentrate more on "GeekSex: Foreplay On Your Keyboard" on threads you or I start, so WE can delete them if somebody wants to get ignorant.
I am sorry I didn't delete that one thread sooner, I could have spared all that ignorance. (LOL...)

[Two 6 Pac]

I had one posted, felt OK with it, but Becs I'm with you. I don't think I want to right now, later, but not now! I saved it.

Barb, you didn't suggest anything wrong at all. We'll all talk about it later.




[This message has been edited by Two 6 Pac (edited 01-13-2005).]

[tracy1]

Uneasy,

General aviation flying is one of the greatest thrills that a person (young or old) can have.

HOWEVER, the idea that flying is safer then driving is an absolute myth that can be debunked easily when looking at statistics. Generally speaking, general aviation (non-commercial) is orders of magnitude more dangerous then driving.

With that said, life is all about risk/reward. Both cases are extremely unlikely and I personally would allow my children on a GA flight if everything checked out.

[This message has been edited by tracy1 (edited 01-13-2005).]

[Lucinda]

Small planes and helicopters freak me out.

Too many bad experiences, close calls, and friends in my industry who just didn't make it. Every helicopter pilot I hired in the early 80's died before 2000, and they were very good, professional pilots. Many survived piloting in Vietnam to die shooting stupid TV commercials.

I had my last joy ride in puddle hoppers and helicopters years ago. (and motorcycles)

[psycho therapist]

Thanks to each of you for your replies, including those which have since been stricken from this topic. They have aided me in more clearly comprehending the logic and dynamics of this electronic community.

Sometimes bad things happen to great pilots for no apparent reason. This is precisely why I would not allow my children to take an aerial joyride. This is my choice, and mine alone. I do not condemn those who would choose otherwise. I do, however, pray Eureka Springs never loses a child to an airplane crash, and most especially not a planeload of them on a joyride.

Sincere condolences to those who have suffered loss through this recent tragedy.

[CrescentD]

Having lived through the gruesome and horrific spectre of police reports, death certificates, coroner's reports, EMT reports, accident reconstructionist reports, and, on top of this, rumor, I know human beings have a need to ask WHY after a death (especially an accident) and to hypothesize causes, true or otherwise. Sometimes this WHY gets transposed into HOW.

Certainly it is necessary, for "closure", for reasons of public safety among many others, for at least some people/authorities to know as many physical details of how and what happened in an accident as possible.

But the small-t truth is that in cases like this tragedy, even when there were eye witnesses, there is almost always some lack of clarity, some unknowns, even in the physical details.

But I think the capital-T truth is larger. As human beings, it is almost impossible to come to terms with the fact that each moment of life is conditional and may be our last. The large, terrible fact of death --- that someone in the midst of life can, at any time, be snatched away, whether through accident, crib death, or the slow-gnawing horror of illness --- we all want, somehow, to exempt ourselves and those we love from it. "Well, she was a heavy smoker." "He didn't fly/drive/ ride his bike / use his tools carefully." "She ate high fat foods all the time and never exercised." I think statements like this are like making the sign of the cross to keep away vampires --- they imply that death is somehow preventable. Sometimes these things may be true; sometimes not --- but finally it is irrelevant. 30 year-old mothers who eat broccoli and brown rice get invasive cancer. Up here, there's a curve of road with houses quite close to it --- a few years ago, someone took that curve too fast and drove right into the living room of a father and daughter who were quietly watching TV; they both died (the driver did not).

There is no no-risk life.We may know "why" 9-11 happened, "why" the tsunami occurred --- but the real why --- the loss of people who from our human perspective did not "deserve" to do, at such a time or in such a manner, is not answerable. Who among us can truly live with the fact that ultimately there is no protection from the possible death or harm of us or someone we love, at any moment? And yet we do, because we must, sooner or later.

"Why" is not a worldly question, but --- finally --- a spiritual one, and in my view, one of those that does not and cannot have a worldly answer.

I used to believe that "everything happens for a reason", regardless of whether I could understand that reason or not. This was an article of faith for me. I LOVED this belief. I found great comfort in it, for years. But it did not begin to hold up for me when, on the same route he had riden hundreds of time, my beautiful and much-loved husband bicycled out of life.

Part of the way death leaves the living is with this larger WHY and its lack of satisfactory answers on any human level.
Here's what I came to, after a lot of wrestling: maybe things happen for a reason (beyond the kind that can be written on accident reports), maybe not. The jury is out. Even if there are reasons, no one, least of all God, is going to drop me an e-mail saying, "Re: Why he needed to go at that time."

But *** whether or not *** "everything", particularly deaths (especially those called "untimely") happens for a reason, it is still *** up to me ***, as a matter of personal choice, responsibility, and integrity, to *** find meaning *** . That, and not the "reason", not the "why?" is my struggle, my challenge, and the clarion call I must try to answer and respond to every day. Find meaning. Make meaning. Live meaning.

In my other post, under 'Plane Crash', I mentioned that sometimes others' remarks can worsen things for the bereaved. Here's one that enraged me: "Well, God must have needed him worse than you did." Oh, like if I had been more whiny, needy, and insecure I would still have Ned? We are each entitled absolutely to come up with our own private paradigms as we wrestle with the "Why" question --- but it is, to say the least, unhelpful to those in loss to superimpose your view on their grief.

(Also, please don't EVER tell any bereaved spouse that you understand what they're going through because you've been divorced and "divorce is like a little death." The number of people who said this still shocks me. Divorce is an ending and a transition, but it is not death. In divorce, always, at least one person has a choice, nor is it, at least potentially, absolute: both parties can marry again, if not each other, then someone else. Not so with death. I guarantee you will never hear a widow say, "Oh, when my husband died that was like a little divorce.")

What is so vital and always well-received (provided you really knew the person and are not a grief voyeur --- and God help us, there are some) is your simple and compassionate PRESENCE. And *** specific help *** is good. Many people told me, "Call me anytime." Only my dear friend Bill Haymes told me, "Look, CD, I sleep lightly and I fall back to sleep easily, so you can call me any time, including at 3:00 am." Many people said, "If you need anything, just ask." Only David Jeffrey said, "Look, it's icy and I have four-wheel drive, call me when you need to go to Hart's." Only Charlisa, unasked, walked through a swirling snowstorm across ice-covered sleeted over ground, to visit me in my silent house my first Christmas alone ---which, without her visit, would have been utterly alone.

As I write these words, King's memorial --- bravely called "a celebration of life" --- is taking place in Lowell. Godspeed, King.

I think, these days, that celebration and grief are inseparable. The more blessed you were to have someone in your life, the longer and harder you miss them. Am I happy now? Yes. Do I have a boyfriend I adore now? Yes. Did I, last week, go on a walk by myself, recall something hysterically funny Ned used to do (a riff involving his mood as based on buttered toast and honey consumption, as described in the voice of an on-the-scene newscaster), and start laughing, then crying, by myself in the woods? Yes.

I join those of you present at the service, and those not but thinking of the family, in loving and saying goodbye to a kind, visionary, and incredibly hard-working man, generous in the extreme.

And, if you can, let go of the "why." There is none. Instead, be present with Grace, Will, and Crystal over the next few years, present in prayer and thought and hope is you weren't close to them personally.

As well, of you can, be with anyone you know personally who loses someone with whom they made a life. A new life must, and will in most cases, be made. But between the old life and the new one, those who grieve are is as soft and unformed as caterpillars. Friends, true friends, are the cocoon in which you dwell safely until at last, in new form, you fly again --- seeing each beat of your strange and lovely new wings as the old you never would, or could, have.

Crescent Dragonwagon

It is now just about the time King's service is starting in Lowell. My heart has been with Grace and Will and Crystal since I heard

[Dani Joy]

Crescent,
Thank you so much for your thoughts. My heart also goes out to you for the life altering experience that you had to face. And you are right. Very few people understand what it is like to lose your spouse, your love, your heart. The emptyness and darkness that you live in for months that turn into years seems to go from a cold dark place into a haven of escape from the reality that you are utterly and completely alone. I also had very good friends that were there for me. Gloria Muzio Shuler was the most incredible friend I could have had. Max & Teresa Boydstun (God bless her soul) were a life line to reality. There are so many more that helped, wanted to help, and yet the only person I could honestly cling to was Rachal. She kept me sane. She became my focus and my reason to exist. So when people say, "I understand", they mean well, and yet most have no concept of the unending pain that takes up residence in your chest and won't leave.

The day after John died Grace showed up and got Rachal. She took her to Ermelio's and occupied her for a while. It was perfect for Rach. I will always be grateful to Grace for her compassion to my daughter.

When Alex was 1 year old David & I were at their boat dock with him, Rach and a whole lot of kids. There was always a ton of kids around. They felt safe and welcomed out there. King kept trying to get me and David to go out on the jet ski. He finally came over and took Alex and pronounced that he would hold him and love on him while we went out. It was so special to see King with this tiny little boy that couldn't even hold his head up. King was absolutely wonderful. That is the kind of man he was.

You do go on, and gradually your life evolves into a new reality, but somewhere in the back of your mind another life still haunts. I am very lucky to have a chance at love twice in my life. But at times, like this, the old pain wells up because I can honestly say that I understand where Grace is at and what she has to face. The best thing anyone can do is just be there. Don't offer explainations, reasons, or future predictions. Just be there.

God bless you Grace, Crystal and Will. May peace and understanding come in time and your wonderful memories of your husband and father live forever in your heart. He was a very special man.

[Two 6 Pac]

This is a very grief filled time for all of us.

I’ll be very brief and touch on just what involved me in this posting episode. One time, nothing between the lines, no hidden meanings. No other comments.

Safety is my main concern, always has been, always will be, all the time period. Case closed.

I wasn’t as upset as I was concerned. I had no idea, still don’t and might not ever know who that poster was. I might have to live with that. The posts in my opinion were so filled with anger directed at me personally that yes I was concerned. Again, my opinion, my concern, my actions.

My safety concerns aren’t just for me, my SIC and any passengers. They also include anyone and everyone on the ground. That makes for a lot of concern.

My actions regarding the poster were for those reasons, no others.

Barb, next time I'm in, bring the older kids and they can tour the plane and have their pictures taken if they want.

No rides would probably be best.




[This message has been edited by Two 6 Pac (edited 01-15-2005).]