War is hell- no more war!

[outsider2002]

Here is the story of one soldier who 'has been there, doesn't want to be there any more':

http://www.mfso.org/Benderman.html

[Hermit of Hogscald]

Now there is a man who truly deserves a medal, but it is much more likely that he will get a court marshall and a prison sentence instead. There are too many who consider those words as treason. For some strange reason, we elect them to lead us.

"What luck for rulers that men do not think" -Adolph Hitler-

[PMilam]

http://www.mfso.org/
See the whole thing.. all the military families that are telling their stories.

I was listening to some pinko station, where they were discussing the money that is given to the family of a military person that is killed while on duty.. in a country where there is conflict, not just anywhere.
Do you know what that sum might be?

[Kim Yonkee]

It was on the news tonight: $12,000-something dollars.

President Bush and administration are trying to get this figure increased to $100,000, but there's an argument going on because the current rules only allow this pay in a "designated combat zone."

The issue seems to be: Do we compensate the families of the deceased if they are killed in, for example, a training accident? Or not?

[PMilam]

Well, hell's bells.. this contraption would not let me edit the last part.. which belongs on the other thread.. Inauguration day..

Now, it is gone.. oh well...

Yes.. even $100,000.. seems paltry.

[This message has been edited by PMilam (edited 02-02-2005).]

[Neener Neener]

"In time of war, the first casualty is truth." Boake Carter 1900's radio commentator

"To jaw-jaw is better than to war-war."
Prime Minister of Britain Winston Churchill

"In our Country...one class of men makes war and leaves the others to fight it out". William Tecumseh Sherman, Civil War general

"When the rich wage war, it's the poor who die." John-Paul Sartre, French novelist

"In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their sons." Herodotus, Greek historian

"War is only a cowardly escape from the problems of peace." Thomas Mann, German author

And my all time favorite:

"Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist distatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." HERMANN GOERING, HITLER'S #2 MAN, BEFORE BEING SENTENCED TO DEATH AT THE NUREMBERG TRIALS.

[Becky Davis]

Exactly..

[redneck]

The whole reason for this war is to keep terrorist out of the US. They succeeded on 9/11. If we would have sit back and not taken action there is a good chance we would be fighting terrorist on US soil. War is hell but protecting our citizens as our forefathers is the right thing to do. Any soldier who refuses to follow orders or fight is a deserter. Plain and simple, your attitude would change if you had lost loved ones on 9/11. Consider not just the towers but the poor people in those planes who had no chance in hell of surviving. Give me a break.

[PMilam]

The war in Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11.
We went to Iraq to rid them of Saddam Hussein.. remember? We left Bin Ladin in Afghanistan.. he was the one that orchestrated the 9/11 attacks.. remember?


Our Mission

Peaceful Tomorrows is an organization founded by family members of those killed on September 11th who have united to turn our grief into action for peace.* By developing and advocating nonviolent options and actions in the pursuit of justice, we hope to break the cycles of violence engendered by war and terrorism.* Acknowledging our common experience with all people affected by violence throughout the world, we work to create a safer and more peaceful world for everyone.

http://www.peacefultomorrows.org/mission.html

Give us a break. Wake up, read the news, search online, get some information from someone besides fox.

[Barb Dunnam]

Redneck,

From someone who has. I don't support this war.
I don't support all of our young men and women going off looking for things that do not exist,enemies where there are none of any consequence.
I don't support the senseless slaughter of families who misunderstood a command from troops and the orphans that remain.

I don't support the pack mentality that prevails.
I don't support our troops being used as scapegoats for the actions of their superiors.

I am an Army Brat, An 15 year active army spouse, a 9/11 family member. A mother of teenagers.
I am a very proud american. I have much to be proud of. I am not proud of us being over there.

I support our troops. I understand very well how they and their families feel and the pressures that are upon them when mixed with loyalty to our country and a keen sense of duty. Do not call them traitors or deserters. They volunteered into the military perhaps we should let them volunteer out.


So please do not say if you had lost someone you would feel differently.
We still todya this day have lost less people on our soil to terrorism then any other World Power.

The lives lost are horrible. The lives to be lost in Iraq will never bring our loved ones back. It will just cause more families to grieve.
I sure don't think tearing up more families is the answer to terrrorism.
Perhaps better intelligance and more cooperation between nations as well as our willingess to cooperate among agencies in our own govt might just be a start.

And now back to my snowball fight with the kids.

[kbeem]

Redneck quote: “The whole reason for this war is to keep terrorist out of the US. They succeeded on 9/11. If we would have sit back and not taken action there is a good chance we would be fighting terrorist on US soil. “

Typical selfish American attitude – as long as your ass is safe you don’t give a damn that thousands of foreigners, who had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11, have died in Iraq. Let the Americans who vote in warmongers be the targets for the terrorists, not innocent foreigners.

[redneck]

I am a retired army sergeantm My grandpa a wwII hero. My father a korean war hero. So kiss my a-- you bleeding heart liberals. Bush made the right decision so live with it. America is one country not two parties as you see it. I have got off my ass and served have you. So you want them in your country instead of us in their country. Stupid stupid stupid.

[kbeem]

Redneck Quote: “I am a retired army sergeantm My grandpa a wwII hero. My father a korean war hero.”

So what – does that make it OK to invade another country for dubious reasons?

Redneck quote: “So you want them in your country instead of us in their country”

Not really, I don’t want “them” in our country or “us” in their country. Maybe if we didn’t cause misery to people in other nations to protect our friggin “American interests”, then we wouldn’t have so many enemies. warmonger warmonger warmonger.

[Barb Dunnam]

Redneck
I am proud of you for having served your country,
I am proud of my family for having done so as well.
It doesn't change how I feel. The people of Iraq are not a threat to us. There are no WMD's, Sadam is out of power.
AS a military family member I have served my country. As have my parents and grandparents and Great Grandparents ad Nauseum
This has nothing to do with parties.
It has to do with our soldiers dying and children losing parents for no apparent reason.
Kinda like Vietnam. I am a child of a Vietnam vet.
My children are children of A Saudi vet who earned the Air Medal. We understand country and sacrifice and service. We do not call you names, becuase you happen to disagree. You stated people would feel differently if they had family from 9/11 etc. Well I do and I don't. Doesn/t make me curse you. just means I disagree with you.
I don't know who the them is you are speaking of.
I doubt it was the Mom and Dad who died in that car on innaguration day.
I do agree we need to get Osama. It is taking an awful long time to do that. I'm not sure how many lives have been lost in that foray.

Not sure if I am a liberal because I do not support the war. I am able to think for myself and draw my own conclussions. I conclude this war sucks. Any time anywhere it sucks.

[Neener Neener]

Barb - I've never heard it said better. Well done.

Redneck - Well, you are true to your name and to you I say "Neener Neener"!

[gman]

Just a question to think about.

Those that claim "Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11"

Is that a true statement? If it is, then in fact we could NEVER find any evidence of this at all, and if we did, it would be "false evidence" due to "we've already said...Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11"

With that being said, then would it be accurate also to say, "nothing" would cover any kind of assistance whether directly or indirectly? This would mean, Iraq never supported either with money, with plans, with thoughts, with training....NEVER with anything????

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say (if that's what you believe) "It doesn't appear at this time that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11"?

Myself, I'm of the opinion that Iraq did help whether direct or indirect the terrorist of 9/11. I'll not bore you with the reasons, it would only be redundant (I'm sure you've heard the ones already, and concluded they aren't strong enough evidence to pursuade you) and that's ok...I stated it's just my opinion. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Hermit of Hogscald]

Ok Gman, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, just maybe someone in Iraq did contribute in some small way to the WTC destruction, it is possible. This does however bring up a very interesting question.

Does this mean that because there may have been some distant connection between Iraq and 9/11, you feel that the invasion of Iraq was both necessary and justified? And if you do, which seems to be the thrust of your post here, then are you a strong proponent of invading Saudi Arabia? 15 of the hijackers were Saudis. Osama is a Saudi. Saudi Arabia is certainly not a democracy. Saudi money has been traced directly to the hijackers. The Saudis even have a lot more oil than the Iraqis.

Even more than that, since we are working with distant connections and tenuous inuendos here, maybe you remember where the Bin Laden family were partying as the WTC fell? That's right, with the Bush family. If you want to invade people over the possibility of distant connection to the attack, by your apparent logic and guilt by association, maybe the next targets should be Saudi Arabia and Crawford, Texas.

You see, you can justify any atrocity if you stretch the logic and connections far enough. So, can YOU really claim that George and family had NOTHING to do with the 9/11 attack?

[RWhite]

You're right, Hermit. If we're going to justify invading other countries because of a "possible" link to the events of 9/11, Iraq would have been lower on the list. We have the Saudis (most of the hijackers, most of the funding); the Iranians (radical Islamic clerics); the Germans (the Hamburg cell); etc, etc. Don't forget the Floridians (pilot training), we could probably use a regime change there, too!

[george jeffrey]

I agree with you Redneck! I read that trators story! I hope he gets 50 years in Levenworth! He does not deserve to wear the uniform that so many Honorable men have worn. Its a good thing I am not the President, war would be MUCH differant!

[Hermit of Hogscald]

I am fascinated, tell us George, if you were president, how would you run war? I want to know what you would do "differant" than the president you elected.

[Renny]

When I read what redneck wrote, I realize that Herr Goering was a pretty bright fellow.

[RWhite]

Actually, Rome, during its democratic era, had it right. The Roman army was led into battle by one of the two counsels (sort of a president/vice president sort of job) and members of the Roman Senate (think Congress). Rome didn't get into many conflicts that weren't in its best interest because, unlike the USA, the leaders of Rome were willing to die for the cause, not just sending others to die for them.

[Hermit of Hogscald]

There was a Sci-fi story I read as a child, it was one of those things that has stuck with me my whole life, because it contained so many deep truths. One of the axioms of this story was what happened when the Empires spaceship landed on a planet. If the planet was known to be friendly, the first to disembark the ship was the commander, followed by the generals, then the majors, until the very last persons to get shore leave were the privates. On the other hand, if the planet was known to be hostile or unknown, the order was exactly reversed, privates first, then on up the command chain until the commander was the last to leave the ship, if he did at all, and then only if his absolute security could be guarenteed.

This was not the only great insight expressed in this story. If you are so inclined, I suggest you try to track it down, it is well worth the effort. The name of the story is "And Then There Were None", and the author was Eric Frank Russell. I wish I still had a copy of it, but you can see how deeply it ingrained itself upon me. I consider it must reading, it is a story of what freedom is really all about.

MYOB Mind Your Own Business
F-IW Freedom-I Won't

A truly visionary piece of writing. Ghandi would have loved it.

[redneck]

I support our troops. I understand very well how they and their families feel and the pressures that are upon them when mixed with loyalty to our country and a keen sense of duty. Do not call them traitors or deserters. They volunteered into the military perhaps we should let them volunteer out.

Well, dang if George Washington, George Patton would of had a volunteer out Army we would probably be speaking german,japaneseor be a british country. Hell George Washington had to line up his troops that tried to voluteer out and have them count to ten and every tenth man was shot to keep them from deserting their duty.Yea a volunteer out Army would have changed history.

[RWhite]

I support our troops, too, Redneck. I just think they deserve a better Commander in Chief. My father was with Patton and he was a volunteer. He remained a volunteer throughout his military career and was honorably discharged at retirement. He thinks the troops deserve a better Commander in Chief, too. He also thinks the retirees deserve a better Commander in Chief, not one who talks a good message and then cuts their benefits.

[Hermit of Hogscald]

Originally posted by redneck:

Hell George Washington had to line up his troops that tried to voluteer out and have them count to ten and every tenth man was shot to keep them from deserting their duty.Yea a volunteer out Army would have changed history.

Redneck, this is the first time I have ever heard this story about Washington. I tried an extensive search of the net to try to verify it, but could find no reference to Washington instituting this policy. Would you kindly provide your source for this information? You would think something like this would be common knowledge and well documented, since I had no trouble finding actual transcripted conversations Washington had with his generals and soldiers.

You wouldn't be slandering the father of our country by any chance? Please provide proof of this inflammatory statement.

[Hermit of Hogscald]

The thought had crossed my mind.

[kf5wd]

Hey, redneck and and george jeffery are pulling your chains. No one could be as uninformed about why we are in Iraq as they portray themselves to be. They are just funning you.

[RWhite]

Hermit, the story George relates is correct, he just has the wrong leader/ country/ century. I don't recall the exact situation where killing every tenth man was used (ancient Rome, or Greece, or Medieval Europe) but it is the source of the word "decimate" which, contrary to common usage, doesn't mean "to destroy," it means "to select by lot and kill every tenth man." It was used to enforce conscription, just not in this country.

General Washington didn't need this method. His army was opposing an elitist ruler named George who was seeking to impose his will on a people yearning for freedom.

Hmmmm. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[redneck]

Keep looking GW did have soldiers killed for mutiny.

[Jhawkr]

RWhite- you are correct about the origin of decimation as a military discipline. Forms of decimation were used in 18th century warfare. When dealing with mutineers, the practice of decimation among those who opted to "volunteer out" was particularly chilling.
Even if you were just "following along with your regimental commander's actions", you were a goner if your number came up, i.e. the tenth man. In dire situations, this method of discipline was applied to the ranks of the Continential army, at the direct command of Gen. George Washington. This in no way defames the father of our country. By his actions, he made the soldiers more loyal to the greater cause of independence than to their colonial regiments. It was war and we won.
Whether decimation was practiced after the Constitution was enacted, I don't know. History is written by the winners and santized for various reasons. To get an inkling of what actually occurred, you need to read the first hand accounts found in journals and letters of the time. That's where you will find alternate views of history. Fortunately for us, Washington had the greatest spin doctor of all time, Thomas Paine.
Read accounts of the regimental mutinies late in the Revolutionary War. You will be told that fleeing troops (NJ or Pennsylvania regimentals) were caught, a trial was held on the spot, and the ringleaders were executed at that time, in front of all the troops.
So, do you believe Washington, fighting off the Brits on one side, and dealing with mutineers on the battlefield on the other, stopped; set up a court, took testimony, weighed the matter from every legal perspective, then duly sentenced the mutineers? I'm inclined to think he caught them, lined them up, killed every tenth man, and returned the surviving mutineers to the battlefield.
Historically, "volunteering out" has not been the practice of the American military. To the larger question on this thread, whatwasitnow? Have a good weekend!

[Kim Yonkee]

Oddly enough, the story is somewhat similar to today. Soldiers in the Continental Army were subjected to a sort of 1781 Stop Loss provision. The Pennsylvania Line mutinied. Their grievances were addressed by Congress. When the New Jersey Line tried to follow in their footsteps, Washington decided, "That's it!" Two of the NJ ringleaders were shot.

Pennsylvania story: http://www.continentalline.org/articles/9504/950401.htm


New Jersey: http://earlyamerica.com/lives/gwlife/chapt8/

[Hermit of Hogscald]

Yes, I am familiar with the practice of decimation, and know it has been practiced since ancient times, as was stated. I have never heard of it being practiced by the US military, even in the Revolution. That is why I questioned Rednecks statement, and did so only after trying to find any reference to it. The statement was made that Washington institued this policy, which I doubt was true, and like it was also stated, history has a way of being sanitized, but still I would like to see SOME kind of varification that the Continental Army employed this method of discipline before I accept it as fact and make a fool of my self down the line by repeating what I believe might be misinformation.

I read one account during my research of Washington encountering large numbers of retreating soldiers fleeing in what he considered an inappropriate time, but found no mention of summary executions resulting. In any case, I am not the one who made the statement, and I am asking the person who did to provide verification if he can. In fact, I don't care WHO provides the info, I would just like it verified.

Interesting to note, if a soldier considers the situation too dangerous and flees, it is called desertion, if a general finds himself in the same situation and flees, it is called a "strategic retreat".

[george jeffrey]

Hermit my friend, I have been pulling your chain! I have been saying that when you go to far left, you need to look to your right, at least a little bit! HAHA!

[george jeffrey]

Dear Friends, It is my Duty to inform you that the story of George Washingtons desertion pratice is true! I will tell you why I know that, Later!!!! Trust me on this one!