Contemplating the issues

[montelinn]

The three most popular religions in the western world are Muslim, Jewish and Christian. They all have their basis in the Children of Abraham. We all know the story as taught to us in Sunday school. But I find it interesting that all three have a different opinion of what really happened. Abraham was 70+ years old when we here about him in the bible. His wife Sarah was barren. She gave her slave, Hagar to Abraham so he could have a son. Which turned out to be Ishmael. Then Sarah became pregnant with Abrahams second son Isaac.

The Muslims believe they are descendants of Ishmael. The rightful err to Gods blessings on Abraham. (God told Abraham that he would be the father of Gods chosen people).

The Jews believe that Abraham was Jewish. Which is interesting because he didn’t follow any of the Jewish traditions of today.

Christians believe Christianity goes back to the same story because of the similarities of the Abraham and Isaac story(Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son: which is believed to be Isaac in Christianity which god spared and believed to be Ishmael by the Muslims)and God sacrificing his son Jesus on the cross.

There are many who know this better than I, please feel free to correct me in any errors I may have stated. I do not claim to be an expert on this or any religious subject. I do try to understand the issues on all sides of any subject before I make a decision for myself. I have no hidden agenda here. I do not actively practice any religion myself. Just trying to understand the foundations of the issues we face today.
How did we get here? What are your thoughts? If your life depended on it what thoughtful solution would you offer up to save your life. Please respect the subject(No Bush Bashing accepted).

[RWhite]

There's a very good book out called "Abraham" by Bruce Feiler which discusses these questions. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants explore this topic.

[Kim]

Thank you for posing an interesting question, Monte.

Originally posted by montelinn:
The Jews believe that Abraham was Jewish. Which is interesting because he didn’t follow any of the Jewish traditions of today.

Beg to differ. A belief in one God instead of many gods. Circumcision as a sign of the covenant with God. The former is THE core issue of Judaism, first introduced by Abram, son of the Idol-maker; the latter is an important ritual that remains important today. If, by Jewish traditions, you are referring to the Sinai Covenant ... my off-the-cuff remark (that someone more scholarly can correct) would be: God promised that Abraham would be the father of nations. Once those nations got out of Egypt, God said, "OK, Moses. Now, here is what I want you to tell My people to do."

But that's just nitpicking, isn't it?

All three religions may spring from a common source. But each seems to have the feeling that it is closer to THE Essential Truth. For example:

Christianity + Islam = "Judaism is a stubborn old creed that refuses to accept the modern revelations that update its original truths."

Christianity + Judaism = "Islam is based on a ridiculous idea because God certainly didn't give a special, final revelation to Muhammad. God stopped talking after he talked to [us]."

Judaism + Islam = "Christianity practices near-idolatry when it claims that God had a son who took on human form. The 'Father, Son, Holy Spirit' concept is dangerously close to the belief in many gods that Abraham's covenant replaced."

These are either issues that are worthy of serious consideration by sincere seekers ... or they're the sort of flashpoints that are easily manipulated by people with political motives. Which makes it interesting, I think, when you ask, "How did we get here?" while simultaneously cautioning us not to Bush-bash. IMO, those two comments provide the answer.

How did we get here? Not by way of Bush, per se. But I think we owe a debt of gratitude to the political leaders who have, throughout history, required large armies of Believers for various purposes. Church leaders, acting out the political part of their roles, qualify here too.

The Crusades come to mind. Inquisition. Intifada. The Holocaust. Eternal strife in Northern Ireland. A vote characterized on the basis of 20-something percent quoting 'moral values' as their Issue (if you'll forgive the indirect, Bush-lite-bash.) It can be notoriously difficult to get people to DO Stuff just because it's the right thing to do. The smart thing to do. The kind thing to do. But poke us humans hard enough in the right religious places and, before you know it, you've got a whole army of people with chain mail and banners and crosses and stars of various shapes... begging to defend your Holy Cause. (Mind you, this seems to be historically true, even when your Cause is very Unholy indeed.)

I can't think of a thoughtful solution to save my life ... presumably, if my life was in the hands of the Islamist fanatics who appear on our nightly news? Because I'd have to admit that I live in a nation which, at the moment, believes that "Muslim-Americans should have restricted rights." Almost half of us say that. And why? Not because we're acting in a thoughtful way. So how could I reasonably expect any group of people to be more thoughtful than the group *I* belong to? It's not like there are a lot of examples of this phenomenon in human history.

So I guess I'd have to revert to the original story of Abraham ... which is, in some ways, the only thing that all of us agree on. Christians & Jews may say Isaac was on the altar; Muslims may say that Ishmael was on the altar ... but all of us seem to agree that, when somebody believes that God has told them to sacrifice YOU, the only way out is by way of Divine intervention.

Doesn't our common story of Abraham tell us: You just don't argue with God? So what possible, thoughtful response could there be? And, to whom would this argument be addressed?

[Dani Joy]

I think….. it's scary when I start a sentence with that particular phrase, but, I believe that God in his infinite wisdom is much less judgmental and restrictive than we are.
Humans (again I believe, for what that’s worth) tend to categorize everything. It helps organize our little world and as such gives us the illusion of some sort of control.

I don’t even pretend to have the answers for our current situation, much less the meaning of religion, or the “true” form of religion endorsed by God. To judge other religions as less than worthy would be, well, judging. And isn’t that one of the things God frowned on?

Maybe everyone is on his or her own process back to God. Depending on where you live and your lifetime experiences you would get there through different avenues or belief systems. That doesn’t make it right or wrong, just what you have to work with.

The problem as I see it is when people try to force their own life experiences, lessons, and beliefs on others claiming that they are “the one true link to God”. The first thing I think is PROVE IT.

It all comes down to faith. And isn’t that really the lesson here, mere mortals trying their best to get back to the illuminating presence that draws us all? Problem is we are mortal and tend to fall off the so-called wagon from time to time.

I drove my mother crazy when I was young because even in church where I was expected to blindly accept the teachings of the preacher I would constantly ask “why”. Is that wrong to look for a truth that only I can see, one that I would be comfortable with, one that a child could accept. Mother thought so.

I believe (there’s that word again) that God is much more subtle than we are. He whispers instead of yelling. Let’s face it…he doesn’t need a bomb to get his message across.

I know that my wake up call came before I knew I was pregnant with Alex. Long story short, when his angel showed up in my home saying that my life was about to change and to look to Abraham, I sat up and listened. It took me a couple of days to realize what was going on and accept it, but the message was complete and I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that Alex was on his way.

Does that mean that I have the inside track to God? Not even. It means that it was time for me to wake up and make a difference in this world other than my own selfishness. It doesn’t make me enlightened in that one moment either. I’m constantly beating my head against the wall trying to make a difference. God never said it would be easy.

So in answer to your question……
I couldn’t pick a religion as being perfect because they are products of man and man isn’t perfect. I choose God as I see him. That works for me and me alone. Everyone else has to get to their comfortable place through their own journey.

[PMilam]

That's about how I feel, Dani.
God doesn't fit in anyone's box. S/he thinks waaay outside the box.

[montelinn]

I want to post this e-mail I recieved from a reader, not a poster(also, the advantage of having your e-mail available in your profile).

Thr Hebrew faith is the oldest by several thousand years but it was not the first monotheist doctrine as all three are now. That was set forth in Egypt much earlier.

Hebrews had their prophets whose works were recorded in the Old Testament.
All of this was known to Mohammad who became a prophet in the 5th Century AD.

Mecca, now part of Saudi Arabia, where he lived was a trades crossroad where many gods were worshipped.

Mohammad believed there could be only One God as the Hebrews and Christians believed. In Arabic the word Islam means "submission to God".

The Koran verses attributed to him call the Hebrews, Christians and Moslems "The People of the Book". Jesus and Mary are revered in Islam.

His beliefs were resented by many who profited greatly from the caravans passing through Mecca. They forced him to flee in fear of his life.

In Mecca he gathered many around him who were convinced he was speaking for the One God. The proof, they said, was in the perfect poetry of the Koran which has never been duplicated by any poetry in Arabic. Even more convincing to thre Arabs was the fact that Mohammad was illiterate.

He led a small army he raised in Medina back to Mecca and took the city 1,400 years ago.

Mohammad named no successor to his role which was the custom then. Some believed that his stepson, Ali, should be the new leader of the faith. They came to be known as the Shia faction of Islam. Shiite faithful are a minority of about 5% in Islam. The majority are Sunni and the leader of the Sunni faith is now the head of the government of Saudi Arabia.

The largest Moslem population is in Indonesia.

The great oil fields in the old USSR are in Moslem countries.

The flag of China is a red banner with one large and four smaller gold stars. The large star represents the Han people, the majority ethnic group. The smaller stars represent the four recognized minority peoples. One is Moslem which is the faith of Western China bordering Afghanistan.

All Moslems learn the Koran in Arabic regardless of their national language.

Much has been written about Jihad, a duty of the Moslem faith often called Holy War. It is really three duties.

First a true Moslem must puge himself of all evil. Second he must encourage others to do the same by setting an exemplary example. After he has acomplished the first two duties then, and only then, can he used the sword to attack evil.

Econmoic conditions in countries dominated by Islam have pitted the haves angainst the have nots for political control of the national raw materials needed by the industrial nations.

Iraq, an Arab country, has a population majority of Shia Moslems who have been shut out of the economy for many years by a Sunni minority run by Saddam Hussein and his Baath Party.

The armed conflict there between Shia and Sunni is based on a Shia proposed elected government to run the country.

Iran, which is not an Arab country, has a large Shia majority.

Al of this is a brief attempt to explain the importance of Hebrews and Christians in Islam which is largely disregarded now and the armed conflicts encouraged by Al Queda, which translates "the organization", a plan to overthrow the Saudi Royal Family government and take over the wealth there.

There are similar revolutionary programs now in all Moslem nations.

[montelinn]

Kim, Dani, PMilam, and e-mailer, I thank-you for your thoughtful responses. Rwhite I hope to be getting the book "Abraham" for Xmas.
It seems to me that all of the religions have changed from their original forms. It seems as man has evolved and prospered, man updates history/religion to fit into what s/he wants to believe and/or wants to promote.
Dani, you speak of faith. I know, in the bible it says that everyone has a measure of faith. I have not been able to apply this faith to anything in my life except for faith in myself. This is not arrorgance. This a pure form of the belief that anyone who truly applies themselves to any task will surely succede. Giving ones all; in mind, body, and spirit.
This is the same faith and effort that the eneminies of today are using to (try)defeat us. When two oposing teams are praying to god for gods help in winning. Who's side is god on?
In this world today I really do believe that there are more similarities: between both parties, between most religions, between most races,etc... . There is just a major lack of communication. Tollerance has gone out the window. Understanding has lost it's definition. Replaced with self serving, self rightious, self promoting people of all races, creeds, and colors. The history of humankind and of all religions is a beautiful tapestry of efforts, skills, trials, and successes that should all be of value. Why is it more valuable to be right than to be respectful. Why is it easier to kill than to have a conversation. Help me. I am searching for a way... .
It seems no one wants to say it. But doesn't it seem God, one God, multiple Gods, Gods in heaven, Gods, Idols, etc... God is the problem? I don't know. I just don't know.
All religions speak of a God of mercy, God of love, God the almighty. But there is none of this in the fruits of any religious group putting forth an opinion. It seems that we all have lost God; the definition of God. God has become Wal-Mart. What I mean by that is God is the one stop shop. The catch all, the reason, the crusade, anyone will do anything in the name of God. Is this God?

[PMilam]

I do believe, and have faith, that God does exist.
I use the word God.. and I do not mean a man god, OR a woman God, I mean that which inspires us, to be fully ourselves, fully as we were made/intended to be.

I think that if you are beating someone over the head with something, that something is not God.

[2100]

We tend to think of Abraham as Jewish because it is through the Torah that his story was brought to us. However, Judaism came to be much, much, later. The nation Judah was a long time away from Abraham. Yahwehism hadn't really developed. If you were to give him a "religion" label, it would have to be 'henotheist', as all were in that part of the world. Henotheism basically took in many gods, each attached to the land of a tribes origin. It was always helpful when traveling to carry some of this ground with you. There are many indications of this in the Old Testament. The first is Genesis. The name used for the Creator is 'Elohim'. The 'im' is a plural suffix.

It's probably important to note, also, that most of the early Old Testament stories have their roots in either earlier Sumerian or Babylonian traditions.

If you accept the Biblical 6000 year time-frame, Judaism, as we understand it, is closer to 2500 to 3000 years old.

Don't know if this helps your understanding, but I hope it gives a little light on your contemplations!

May God, Yahweh, Allah, Baal, Marduk, Ahura-Mazda be with you!

[OvertheRiver]

Originally posted by PMilam:
I do believe, and have faith, that God does exist.
I use the word God.. and I do not mean a man god, OR a woman God, I mean that which inspires us, to be fully ourselves, fully as we were made/intended to be.

Agree. I think it is basic human insecurity is what causes people to impose rules and restrictions within a religion. It's order vs. chaos.....pretty much everybody wants to think there is someone/something higher in charge - somebody to pass the buck to; it's human failure and error that makes some need to seek personal validation from a set of rules imposed by some organized religion. And then some don't need to be validated in that manner, but prefer to worship within one using their personal set of spiritual guidelines; others "freelance" and worship in their own way.

In the Christian Bible (slightly post Abraham), God handed down the Ten Commandments to Moses - in their pure form, they probably echo the basis of all religious beliefs - there is intolerance for things that most social orders do not tolerate - murder, envy, theft, adultery, etc. It's all the rules and tweaks added by man to those basic rules that seem to cause the problems.

[Kim]

Originally posted by montelinn:
God is the problem? I don't know. I just don't know... What I mean by that is God is the one stop shop. The catch all, the reason, the crusade, anyone will do anything in the name of God. Is this God?

Apparently-unrelated anecdote:

My father was a paradoxical kind of guy ... he was ultra-logical, but he was simultaneously ultra-religious. At one point in his career, Dad was appointed to be the public defender of a man who was fighting involuntary commitment because he claimed to be the second coming of Christ.

Maybe this is one of those, "you would have had to have been there" kind of stories, but my father's musings about this case made quite an impression on me. "I'm not saying I believe that this man is really Jesus," he said, "But think about it: If Jesus returned to Earth today, how would He be dealt with? I suspect He'd be treated as though He were mentally ill."

And if you think about it, isn't that true? I'm not talking about the reception Jesus would get from the people who own every volume in the Left Behind series. I'm talking about how the matter would be played on network news. How would law enforcement react to the appearance of a man wearing a gown "dipped in blood" and waving an iron scepter? Revelations promises "wasting diseases..." so world health organizations would just accept this as Truth instead of imposing quarantine?

We seem to have a whole lot of official structures and beliefs that keep us very distant from THE Truth, whatever the truth might be. Which means, how would we know ... really? If George Bush or Osama bin Laden or James Dobson or the Reverend Fred Phelps claim to get their directives straight from God, how do we know whether they're telling the truth? Or not? It's not like there's a test.

And I imagine there is someone out there who is thinking, at this very moment, "Test? TEST!?!? How DARE you say test!?!? One does not presume to TEST God!"

But, since you started this whole conversation with the story of Abraham, I'd have to point out that, when God told Abraham & Sarah they were going to be parents, they laughed. Laughed! They LAUGHED. At God! This is a behavior that's indicative of a pretty easygoing sense of familiarity, don't you think?

If you see somebody walking down the street with his shirt on backwards and a toucan on his head, you probably nod politely. Maybe you cross the street and duck your eyes. You just ... try to avoid making waves. Because you never quite know how somebody like that will react.

But if your best friend shows up at your house with his shirt on backwards and a toucan on his head, you probably laugh. At him. And you probably feel safe to do so because there is an un-stated understanding between you and your friend. You both know, without ever being required to seriously discuss the matter, that the love and companionship you share could never be sullied by a mere fashion faux paus.

But we seem to be pretty distant from the friendly sort of connection that God had with Abraham and Sarah. So when you ask, "Is this God?" ... who knows? The people who claim to talk to God all say that God has told them to kill somebody. God "tells" everybody to kill different people, but He seems to be pretty consistent ... if you believe all the people who say that "God told me to kill [enemy party X]."

Does this mean that God is bored with us all so He's using the most efficient method to put us out of His misery? I don't know. Don't claim to know.

But, despite the fact that I'm one of those people who adheres to the idea that God is a Being that surpasses mood, gender, and all other human-invented constructions, I figure there is a reason why we have such a thing as the Lord's Prayer: Our Father, who art in Heaven...

"Father," being the key-word here ... and what do fathers do? They TRY to tell you to shoot your BB-gun at the target instead of at the house. And, if you don't stop shooting at the house, fathers shrug and say, "Well, when he blows out all the windows and I clean out his savings account to pay for the damage ... he'll learn."

Which we will ... won't we? If the point is, for example, that God wants us to learn compassion, does it really matter whether we learn compassion for others ... or whether we grasp the general concept by feeling sorry for ourselves? Either way, we'll learn the general idea of compassion. Easy way. Hard way. What does it matter to God how we do it, as long as we get the point? (see: Free Will)

So I will make the following deliberately provocative statement: The only person that God actually talks to is Osama bin Laden.

Which I say because I note that many people are shaking their heads sadly over the idea that "people" just mix things up in the name of God.

Which can only be a true statement if we are willing to admit that WE are just as likely to be the "mixed up people" as anybody else.

If the point here is to discuss ideas about how to stop the madness, I would ask you to consider this deliberately provocative statement.

If the point is to shore up our own sense of righteousness in a mad, mad world ... then, nevermind.

[OvertheRiver]

Originally posted by Kim:
So I will make the following deliberately provocative statement: The only person that God actually talks to is Osama bin Laden.

Which can only be a true statement if we are willing to admit that WE are just as likely to be the "mixed up people" as anybody else..........

......If the point here is to discuss ideas about how to stop the madness, I would ask you to consider this deliberately provocative statement.

If the point is to shore up our own sense of righteousness in a mad, mad world ... then, nevermind.emphasis added

Kim, I think your last sentence is what I was trying to say above. I think that the "fundamentalists" of all the religions are these people, who are not comfortable thinking beyond the explicit "guidance" developed by men in their respective religion. They don't WANT to consider that their whole lives may be devoted to the wrong idea; that is why they are so strident; that is why they could never consider debating whether bin Laden is actually the chosen one.

You could not get a debate from those who believe that way. Those who don't believe that way instantly get your point and despair because they know there will never be a common meeting ground. We know that from history.

Uh, other than that Happy Holidays!

[montelinn]

Kim, The point is to find common ground; to find some sembalance of a solution. I personally believe that man has stepped in and screwed all of this up; in the name of god, for power, for money, for the right to be right.

It seems the parting of the ways was with Abraham. OTR to proceed deeper; There seems to be a basic human need to validate their existence and their lives by being right. Religion gives everyone this opprotunity. Since it is such a blurry vision, everyone can say they are right and no one can really prove them wrong.

These are issues that I have spent a lifetime trying to arrange in a way that I can digest.

At this point I want to put forth another possibility:
Please hear me out. I have not been "getting smoked up" to come up with this.

In the Universe there is an order to things, but at the same time "infinite" is also the rule. Time is "infinite", no beginning or end. Space is "infinite" There are an "infinite" number of Stars. We are finding Planets around stars all over the place. So there are probably an "infinite" number of planets. We are discovering that life was probably on Mars at one time if not today in the form of Bacteria. Saturn's Moon Titan, is one of the best places in our solar system to find life. So the possibilities of finding life elswhere in the universe is high and most likely "infinite". So what is the common theme here. "Infinite" or "Infinity" is more like a natural law; like gravity. So if "infinity" is actually a common theme in our existance; why is, could there be, should there be only one way to eternity.
Life is a precious jewel. So the human belief that life continues in some form after death is something we "hope" for, have "faith" in, believe with our last dying breath or to the death. So how; in a Universe of "infinities", can there only be one possibility for eternity. It seems to me that eternity is "infinite" so there are most likely an "infinite" number of ways to spend it, get into it, deal with it.

This precious jewel of life seems to continue; "infinitely". What if in our heart of hearts, to the core of who we are and what we beleive; that is what becomes of us in the after life. If you believe, really believe, not just give lip service to, but really believe that Jesus is your savior and when you die you will be with him walking on streets of gold and glorifying his name always.... this is what happens to you. If you belive that you will die and be in "Utopia" or the 5th level of whatever... that is what happens to your spirit. If you believe that when you die there is no after life and you are burried and thats it... Maybe it is all over for you. your spirit stops here. Remember we have the opprotunity to fill up some of "infinity"
So instead of; I am right because I'm a Baptist and this is the only way to heaven. So if you don't believe what I believe then you are going to Hell. This opens up the possibility of all of humankind being right at the same time. Can I here an "infinite"! If every person can be right within themselves, doesn't this take away most of the reasons for War, or arguement. If this was a universal belief there would be no need for spreading the "Good News" that you and all of your people in history are burning in Hell because they didn't believe what I believe. This "Hypothesis" has just as much of a possibility of being correct as any other unproven hypothesis of the afterlife.

[montelinn]

And remember; we are looking for a solution, not trying to justify our beliefs!

[OvertheRiver]

Montelinn...."aye, and there's the rub!" The platonic ideal is what you describe - the implementation of the ideal is where mankind gets itself - has always gotten itself - into trouble.

I don't really think anyone posting here is trying to justify his/her own beliefs, either....the debate is interesting,though.

Do you think debates like this are why suicide rates go up during the holidays? You know, the quest for the meaning of one's existence?

I'm being happy and upbeat for the holidays, so I shall revert back to lurking, not posting, on this topic! I've spent enough of my lifetime pondering it already! My best to you and yours over the holiday season; may you have peace! http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/smile.gif

[montelinn]

This conversation was not meant to be a downer. If this is never answered then there will never be peace on earth, good will toward all persons. Thanks all! Merry Christmas or Happy hanakah(sp), Merry Quanza etc... . and a Happy New Year!

[Kim]

I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas, a Happy Hanukkah, and that ya'll are now busy having a Happy Kwanzaa. Today is the first day of Kwanzaa, dedicated to the principle of Umoja (Unity). So it seems like a good time to continue this discussion. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/smile.gif

Monte, your comments about all of humankind being right at the same time express my own beliefs perfectly. But when I try to apply this ideal to the practical concept of "peace on earth, good will towards all," I get stuck in an endless chicken v. egg meditation. For example:

We've been hearing a lot about Traditional Values lately. When I think of Traditional Values, I see Norman Rockwell paintings. But when I Google the term "Traditional Values," I get Traditional Values Defined (http://www.traditionalvalues.org/defined.php), where I discover that "Traditional Values" means the death penalty. Discrimination. Intolerance. I learn that, while the Bible may say that we are to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us, what the Bible means when it says love is that you should decide first whether your enemy is "evil" because "intolerance IS love" if he is "evil."

My first reaction would be to reject this view, but if the ideal is, "all of humankind is right at the same time," then this perspective must be just as correct as any other. The people who believe it is their duty to give me the Good News that I am going to Hell must be correct; the fanatics who believe they are doing Allah's holy work when they kill innocent infidels must also be correct ... that is, if the rule is, "there is room in infinity for all humans to be infinitely right."

So how do we achieve peace on earth in a world where "righteousness" has a higher value than "peace?" How do we achieve good will towards all when, even in our own culture, there are a fair number of people who believe it is a sin to have good will towards those they deem to be "evil?"

You asked for a solution and, when I think about it, I have to consider the fact that we humans seem to have a minimum daily requirement of violence and intolerance. If you spend any time on an elementary school playground, it's hard to escape the idea that peace and goodwill aren't socialized OUT of our natures. Most parents and teachers spend their time trying to beat these concepts IN. Yes, maybe children have to be taught to hate, but they sure don't need any lessons on taking somebody else's' cookie because they WANT it.

We start forming cliques in nursery school, and by adulthood, we've elevated the process of pointing at each other and shrieking to an art form: Oh! You hypocrite! You homo! You Irish! Italian! Japanese! Black! Asian! Muslim! <font size=-2>[pick a generation and insert racial or cultural epithet here]</font> Sure, we don't don loincloths and run screaming across the steppes to spear mastodons anymore ... and why should we when we have XBox?

So, peace and goodwill are great ideals indeed. But I suspect that, if we are ever going to achieve these ideals, we're going to need some sort of outlet for the part of our human nature that still sports a vestigial tail.

[montelinn]

So is that the answer? It is in our nature to discriminate and be intolerant? Kim thank-you for the thoughtful commentary. I agree with you... mostly. I am not willing to give up on this yet. We require of our elected officials, answers to these questions that we ourselves cannot seem to digest. Until a way is found to address the human belief system, the concept of "Peace on Earth" only applies to works of fiction.

There are many who post here with an opinion on how things are being run. How about a stab at a solution? I am open to the opinions of others. It makes us all stronger, with a greater understanding of the issues we all face.

It may not be fun but it is reality.

[montelinn]

Here is another response from the e-mailer:

You are measuring the unmeasurable in terms of contemporary events. Infinity translates as unmeasurable.

Anything finite is measurable sooner or later. Infinity means non finite.

Did you know we measure the distance to the sun in terms of 1000 oaces of a Roman soldier? The sun is said to average about 93 million miles from earth. A mile is 1000 paces of a Roman soldier. Mile (pronounced mee lay) translates as 1000 from Latin.

The mandates of religions have been often used to excuse actions. The Crusaders, in search of loot, trade routes to the East and lands for other than first sons, said God Wills It.

All creeds are codes of conduct written for people to achieve peace of mind in this world. "If you want a better world, be better people" is all they say.

Promises of life after death came much later and are not universal.

The question peope want answered is really, "Is there death after life?"

But there is no authority to ask.

Heaven and Hell are states of mind. We make our own while we are here.

Read Dickens' "A Christmas Carol" again. That is the message.

[James DeVito]

Natural order and the fact that man evolved from "lower" life forms influence our actions. Is it wrong for the lion to prey on the less swift.
The problem with religion is when man comes between god and the followers. Rather than guide people to the godly way some religious leaders create a roadblock and make themselves the way.

[Kim]

Originally posted by montelinn:
So is that the answer? It is in our nature to discriminate and be intolerant?

Oh dear. Another chicken v. egg meditation. Is discrimination and intolerance our nature? Or are these behaviors a manifestation of some other character trait that may have a higher and better use? Just for the sake of argument, I'll say the latter is true... that discrimination and intolerance are merely the side effects of the same very useful human trait that turned us from a species that dragged things around into the species that created the wheel.

We are a species that aspires to More & Better, by nature. I'm tired of eating raw meat; let's build a fire and cook it! I'm tired of chipping tools out of rock; let's invent iron! I'm tired of living in Tennessee; let's invade Texas! Even the people who aspire to non-material goals are all about mo' better something: More Clarity. More Enlightenment. More Oneness with All Things.

So if I re-state my playground bully example in these terms ... What if we say that humans have a minimum daily requirement of challenge and aspiration?

Why does the playground bully steal Billy's cookie? Because, like all humans, the bully has a natural, hard-wired desire to improve himself and/or his circumstances. If the only aspiration that appears to be available to him is "get more cookies," and the only challenge that appears to be available is "steal Billy's cookies," these are the paths he's going to take. Which is why, I hypothesize, that parents & teachers try to replace the bully's natural urges with more appropriate manifestations. "Aspire to be beloved by friends and admired by your teacher. Challenge yourself to learn the art of negotiation or the art of cooking so you can talk Billy out of his cookies or bake your own."

It's all pretty simple when we just have one bully, one Billy and one cookie. But when we throw a whole bunch of people, faiths, countries and cultures into the soup, we're bound to have a whole lot of competing methods on our various paths to achievement & challenge. Which is pretty much like regular old, non-global, non-international life, isn't it?

Who has never said, "Wait! No! You misunderstand me! That's not what I meant?" Who has evaded those periods in life that feel like some mad Divine Being dropped a quarter in the Cosmic Pinball Machine so that said Divine Being could watch you bounce off the flippers? <font size=-2>[while laughing maniacally and whacking on the tilt button]</font>

I suspect there won't be any hands raised on these questions, because the quest to understand, to be understood, to meet the adventures of life victoriously seem to be basic features of individual life.

Which means ... if global life is composed of a whole lot of individual lives, how could the macrocosm be any different than the microcosm? Hence, how could we possibly expect peace and goodwill out of a large collection of people who are individually pursuing aspiration and challenge ... and individually struggling with their own 8 second rides in the Cosmic Flipper Rodeo?

Which means ... what if peace and goodwill is not The Point? What if The Point has nothing to do with Faith or Leadership at all? Because what is Faith and who are our Leaders, if not stand-ins for our own Aspiration? Unreliable substitutes, it seems, because what some call "Faith," others call "Crusade" or "Inquisition" or "Jihad." What some call "Leaders," others call "Tyrants" or "Despots" or "Incompetents."

Which means ... depending on how you look at it, the process of relying on Faith or Leaders is either a system designed to disappoint ... OR it's a really excellent system for forcing all of us to define the nature of our OWN aspirations.

So when I say, "I don't see a path to Peace on Earth and Goodwill Towards All," I don't mean it in a bleak, cynical way. I mean that I think The Point is more like, "What did you learn from the various adventures of life? How did you personally grow?"

I imagine a world full of people who dream of War on Earth and Badwill Towards ME <font size=-2>(This is a surprisingly E-Z mental picture for a Red State, Secular, Liberal, Homosexual Capitalist)</font>. Do I aspire to gain the goodwill of the people who despise me while being simultaneously unable to correctly identify my unconscious form if they find it mounted on the front grille of their car? Well ... no. Do I aspire to look beyond the irrational beliefs of these people so I can pluck their unconscious forms off the front grille of somebody else's car if the need should arise? Well ... yes. And working myself into that sort of understanding state is a challenge, believe you me!

But these are personal aspirations and personal challenges. Maybe I can get guidance from my Faith or my Leaders, but it seems like, no matter what anybody TELLS me to do, I'm still stuck with actually DOING it... which is pretty much the way it works, whether one is a Red State, Secular, Liberal, Homosexual Capitalist or a Saudi Arabian, Fundamentalist Muslim Jihadist ...

... isn't it?

Which is all just a wordy way of saying: If we really want whatever we want, I think it's up to US. Individually. Personally. No default to Faith or Leadership or the debatable failings of either ... no Kings-X in the game of Candy Bar Tag. Just suck it up and fill your own little squares on the Great Global Crossword with your very own pencil.

Amen. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Glenn Strange]

EXACTLY!!

Let it be so.

Great job Kim!

Business really does have nothing to do with personal.

We each choose what and how we are.

After all I have "Mine" and You have "Yours" why should we worry for others, when we all end in dust.......RIGHT!

Glenn Strange

[montelinn]

Kim, I agree. But, I think the global issue is much deeper. It must be another basic human trait to "control". "Control" seems to permiate the human experience.

We all use control to a certain extent in our daily lives. Why is this so? I personally hate to control. But at the same time I own a business. So I control it(to some extent). But control shows up in all phases of life. From using emotions to control the responses of others(learned at an early age), to using our beliefs to give a foundation for an attempt to controlling the behavior of others
Husbands, wifes, and partners use sex to control the other person in a relationship. "If you ever have sex with someone else, I will leave you". This is a form of control. I am not promoting ethier side of this just stating the fact.

I am sure everyone can think up an "infinite" number of ways that control effects our daily lives. So with this being the"given", what can we do?

Another "chicken and the egg" senerio would be control and power. Which came first? and Which is the goal? We use power to control and we use control to gain more power.

So to recap; we human beings use power and control to discriminate and be intolerant; with religion being the most acceptable vehicle to achieve our objectives. Does this just about cover it? We need to define the issue before we can truly seek a solution.

Not a very flattering portrait of humankind.

[OvertheRiver]

Montelinn, there IS no solution - whether you identify the issues or not. There is no solution because OF human nature; there will never be a solution. That's just the way it is. The only possible solution goes so against the grain of human nature, operating within (or outside of) the confines of the societies within each human operates.

My dogs will sometimes pick a fight over the same food bowl, even though they KNOW that each of them has a different bowl. Although they are generally sweet, kind, and loyal, it's their nature. They sometimes want what the other one has, even if it's the same thing they have. They can't help it. By analogy, neither can we.

I just write this as an observation. I just see no point in trying to solve an insoluable problem, particularly when there are so many that can be solved.

[montelinn]

I just refuse to believe it. Call it stubborn, hardheaded, whatever. If there is no solution then: There will always be war in the middle east. We will go on killing those that are trying to kill us. If you haven't noticed, everything is escalating all over the world. No reason to get mad at the politicians if that is just the way that it is.
When we get Iraq to a manageable point(obviously it will never be over), then we can go get the next guy(Iran, Korea). With this way of thinking the only hope we have is to just avoid being caught in the crossfire, because it is just going to escalate. There has to be a point where a solution is more desireable than the status quo. What do we do when a nuke is detonated in the U.S.? If we are going to require the elected officials to solve the problem... the elected officials are us. If it is just going to go on why not just kill all of those that are trying, or will be trying in the future, to kill us. Hell, use nukes. We won't have to put ourselves or our children in harms way.

We have to solve the issue. What would it take? One world government? I am serious here. We have to step outside of our comfort zone. It might take self-sacrifice. Are we willing? If just this conversation makes one uncomfortable, then how can we even deal with the issue.

The solution is the conversation. Looking at all sides of the issue. Hell, it all goes back to a family problem. When you talk about it. You see how it has gotten to this point. How the future looks bleak if nothing changes. We have to do something. If not now; sometime. It will come down to a conversation. Maybe our children or our childrens children will have the conversation.

Either way, If we are not part of the solution, then don't bitch at the guys that are dealing with the issues the best way they know how, on a daily basis.

[OvertheRiver]

These times are no different from the past thousands of years of history. Nobody has been able to fix it yet......if this were a new and novel anomaly, I could understand where you are coming from. But, it's not. What is happening now is what has always happened throughout the course of recorded history.

[James DeVito]

Technology brings you to the position where you look for a global solution because the world has been presented to you. Technology may provide the solution, once we know how to use it.

[kf5wd]

"In the begining, man created Gods". He continues to do so and as long as he believes his God is the only true one then there will be conflict. Wonder whose God is being credited with the tsunami?

[Kim]

Wow! This is great! With all these chickens and eggs we'll be able to feed the world with a gigantic poultry omelet! http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/smile.gif

Just for the sake of argument ... can I redefine your chicken & egg, Monte? How about Which came first? Control or fear?

Why does a spouse say, "If you ever have sex with someone else, I will leave you?" I'll play the wife here: Because if you have sex with someone else, I might get a deadly disease. You might like sex with her more than you like it with me ... and then you will leave me and our children will starve and I will never find anyone else to love me and I will die a cold, slow, sex-deprived death. Alone. Under a bridge. In the rain. There is always some ... and then the wolf blew my house down kind of story that precedes the effort to exert control.

Why are we waging war in Iraq? Because if we don't go get Them first, they will attack Us with WMD's. Failing that rationale, if we don't get rid of Saddam, he will steal all the money We give to the UN and use it to pay other people to attack Us. In short, we want to exert control because we are afraid that any number of things might happen if we fail to dominate the situation.

On the other side of the question, why do the insurgents fight? Ask any Arab, or read al-Jazeerah, and you'll learn that They fight because They are afraid that We will do what They say We have always done: We will disrespect their culture, overthrow the leaders they want, replace their choices with people we regard as "favorable to the American cause," but which They regard as vile despots who torment the citizens and rape the nations they propose to "rule." Once again, the driving motivation is fear....

... and the biggest problem is, BOTH sides have good points.

We can gesture at the World Trade Center, the USS Cole, any number of American Embassies to prove Our point. But here's the hitch (and I call it a "hitch" because of the no-Bush-bashing rule): At some point, if we REALLY want to have peace on Earth, we're going to have to admit that the AP photos of Donald Rumsfeld ... shaking hands with Saddam Hussein in the very-big-middle of the Kurdish gassing incident were NOT Photo'shopped. We're going to have to admit that we provided intelligence and funding and anthrax to Saddam Hussein because it was "in our national interest" to do so. We don't have to admit this if we just want to say, "I want peace on Earth, according to my own terms, and goodwill towards ME ... enforced, if necessary, at the point of a gun." But if we actually, legitimately, want peace, we're going to have to suck it up and let the buck stop. Where it stops.

Let me be your wife again, Monte ... and let's pretend you've had sex with somebody else. I've caught you, and you don't want me to leave you. So what is your only possible recourse?

Begging comes to mind here ... I can see you on your knees, ardently confessing that you've made a terrible, terrible mistake. You're going to have to suffer, of course. And when I say, "suffer," I don't mean, "You're going to have to suffer as much as you've made ME suffer." No, you're going to have to suffer MORE. Sorry, but this is a rule. I have to know that you're serious and not merely making a spurious, knee-bent confession.

Trust is going to be an issue for a while ... and God help you if you tell me you were late at the office because the Heidelberg broke down. I'll be needing to see the time-stamped repair ticket ... supported by a cancelled check. Verbal confirmation by way of the repairman's cell phone would be a nice touch.

Point being ... isn't this essential wife-ness? Or husband-ness, if the situation were reversed and you, my mythical husband, caught me cheating on YOU? Or essential nation-ness, if we believe that all nations are composed of people who are not particularly likely to refer to yellow excretory-tract emissions as "rain." If we've never personally been in this situation, surely we've seen it on Jerry Springer. So, again, why would nations behave any differently than the people who populate them?

I agree with you, Monte, that the situation needs to be dealt with. And I agree with OTR that it's never been done. And I agree with James that, if it ever WILL be done, it will be now ... at a time when the entire world is more personally connected than it's ever been before.

But I think my needle is stuck on the Personal Responsibility track.

If we're ever going to have Peace on Earth and Goodwill Towards All, somebody is going to have to pick up that particular ball and run with it. Somebody, somewhere, somewhen, is going to have to show the world what peace and goodwill looks like. As OTR has pointed out, we don't have any historical examples to point to. We have plenty of examples of nations who slap on big, greasy smiles and hiss "I loooove you! Love you!" through their big, shiny teeth ... but REAL examples of peace and goodwill? The sort of examples that would meet the sort of Basic Minimum Ethics test that we might apply to the guy who sells fake Rolex watches out of his overcoat on the street corner? Hmmm... can't think of a one. Including our current example of knocking down every domino in the Middle East with all our peace, love and democracy.

But we're just about to enter a New Year, and that means it's time for Resolutions. I am told that we live in the Greatest Nation on Earth ... THE Veritable Wellspring of Democracy ... The Nation Which Provides a Model for All Nations Who Hope to Give Their People A Voice.

OK. Fair enough. So is that who we really are? Or not?

If we are what we keep telling the world we are, then We the People have the power to require our Leaders to walk on the path of Peace and Goodwill. We, being Leaders of the Free World and all, could provide the example for all other nations to follow. Assuming, of course, that Peace and Goodwill is what We the People actually want.

Which is really the big question, isn't it? When we say, "I want peace on earth and goodwill towards all," do we mean ALL? Or do we take the erring-spouse view, as in, "I want peace and goodwill towards ME! And I want to have sex with anybody who catches my fancy. And I want you to accept this. Embrace this. So I can have sex with YOU when I feel like it. And, while you're at it, bring me a beer and rub my back, will you?"

I mean ... pick one. Either one. I don't have any particular attachment to the choice, but I can't help but note that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif

[montelinn]

Kim, I believe we are on the right track. Taking your analogy of me being your husband. I cheated and need to show you how serious I am about regaining your trust. Just admitting to you what you already know would not be enough. I would admit everything that I had EVER done. Even the things you don't even know about. This would be the first step on the road to trust.

If we as a country, seriously admitted to the things that we have done in the past, maybe we could lead by example. I really do believe that our example has gotten us to the place we find ourselves at today. Pointing fingers at who is to blame is easy. But really not accurate. Looking in the mirrior is where the blame really lies. Our bad behavior as a country goes back throughout our history as a nation. It crosses all party lines and socio-economic classes. Our own personal bad behavior is a reflection of the path of our nation. When we would rather complain about issues rather than trying to find solutions. When we break laws because "no one will really know". When we discriminate and are intollerant because our fathers did; these reflections are the foundation of the ills of our country.

[Andy McDonald]

Well, slap me and call me an optimist but I believe that peace is an attainable goal. And I believe God would be thrilled to see us achieve that goal. (Yep, I believe in that One God idea) It must be really painful to watch us be cruel to and kill each other.

But I believe that we reach the goal through education. Education about each other and God. The more we know about other people often the more difficult it is to HATE them. We may still not like them but we tend to stop hating them because we understand WHY they are what/how they are.

God wants us to know him and he wants to know us. Someone in this thread made a funny about how so many people believe you should not arguing with God. Sadly many people do seem to think God does not enjoy a good argument. That could not be further from the truth. In the Christian Bible there are examples of people arguing with God and God actually changed his mind on some of those occasions. Although he does apparently demand that you be respectful in your argument.

[OvertheRiver]

Yeah, well maybe, under James' technology theory, little remote mind-control devices can be implanted in everybody's heads to make 'em act right. But then, there's the problem of whom we let have control of the mind-control gizmos.....that issue alone should be good for another couple centuries worth of war.

Monte, you know, I've never met you or Kim face-to-face, but, I'll pray for you if y'all ever become husband and wife....... http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif

[OvertheRiver]

PS: Actually, I am really somewhat of an optimist. No, Really!! It's so much more fulfilling to go through life that way.

[montelinn]

OTR, I to am an optimist; really! I also believe in facing reality, even if it hurts. Just because something doesn't feel good doesn't mean it should not be considered.

I am also happily married. I do have great respect for Kim's thoughtfulness and the ability to say what she thinks. More should try thinking outside the box.

Some of my staff have read this thread. Most have the need to justify their own religious beliefs. I think it is hard for some(if not most) to think in terms of humanity as a whole; putting themselves in the shoes of others.

[OvertheRiver]

Actually, Monte, I just don't think we are wired to analyse things the same way. I prefer to devote my thoughts and efforts toward making the little corner of the world I CAN affect in a positive way, rather than ponder problems that are totally and unquestionably out of my control.

As an example, 3 years ago, I formed and teach a children's "choir" in my town. In fact we just finished performing in the local Christmas program. Three years later, we've got kids fighting over who "gets" do do the solos (much to my amazement), and there is an upswing in the kids' interest in learing to play musical instruments, in addition to singing. The choir is non-denominational, and, at last count, includes "un-churched" kids, Christian kids, and Jewish kids. That pretty much covers the religious affinity base I have access to here.

I'm in the middle of my third 3-year term as a director on the board of my county's Chamber of Commerce; I also do the legal work for them pro bono. My goal is to make sure our fast growing development does not destroy our rich wilderness and wetlands.

I am currently the president of the local garden club. We provide funds for, and work to improve - yet preserve - the historic nature of our town, which is completely on the National Historic Register for its great number of ante-bellum buildings.

I do all of this, and other activities, because I WANT to make a difference. No,I can't ever make a difference in changing all of humanity's mindset to acheive peace, but I can surely aspire to positively affect the people who come into contact with me.

Any perceived failure you see in mine and others' viewpoints is most likely based on how we perceive the best way we can try to make a positive impact on those with whom we come in contact. I just prefer to bite off some positive project that I can actually see through, than to worry about those things I cannot change.

If anything ever changes the current world hatred, it will be something like the tsunami, where race, religion, and cultural differences are not important to those throughout the world who give need aid to those who have been devastated.

[OvertheRiver]

PS: I was trying to be funny, evidently unsuccessfully, when I said what I did about you and Kim getting married! http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/smile.gif

[becsflowers]

I agree....If I had ONE WISH, it would be for the world to come together and HELP each other, one at a time, through rebuilding from the disasters and war... to UNITE in the spirit of LOVE and PEACE, with no boundaries...I pray for peace...and the fact that good things happen out of bad...that there IS light at the end of the tunnel.

Now, to MAKE it happen, I need faith...prayer without faith is, well, just words....I close my eyes and envision peace.

Everybody try it...close your eyes and see peace....

Peace to you all.

[Two 6 Pac]

Arguing with God!

Changing God’s mind! Isn’t there a Divine plan? Are we to really think our meager little prayers could change the divine plan of something such as a God!
Look around . Is this the work of an all powerful and loving God? Through out history more people have killed and been killed under the name of God than all other reasons combined!

Faith based religion, written by man, translated by man, made sense of by man, adjusted to fit by man! Practice by man!

What about scientific facts? Physics? Look at time and space. Quantum mechanics. Take a look at the thoughts of the most brilliant. God ? This is more like the work of an office temp with a bad attitude! Why this planet ? Space, ever expanding, ever collapsing? Endless? Finite?

If God created all this, what was he/she doing before that? Just us? God!

No one has searched for that comfort more than I have. Want to compare misery? Want to compare heart arch? How about pain? Bring your lunch!

People’s views and beliefs about the world center around one or several metaphors. For example, if you see the world in terms of moral worth and submission to a higher law, you are conventionally religious. If you see the world in terms of cause and effect and experimenting to find the right solutions, you are oriented toward science.
People who share one or more of these basic metaphors will find that they can communicate effectively with one another and work together constructively. People who do not will usually be unable to regard one another with anything beyond fear, hostility, and contempt. Because of this lack of communication between groups, most discussions of important issues in the public arena quickly degenerate into grandstanding and name calling, because in the absence of real understanding between the disagreeing parties, only mob psychology is left to sway public opinion.

God? I certainly hope so!

[Kim]

Originally posted by OvertheRiver:
Monte, you know, I've never met you or Kim face-to-face, but, I'll pray for you if y'all ever become husband and wife....... http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif

Now, why in the world would you feel it necessary to pray for Monte, OTR? Answer carefully. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/redface.gif

<font size=-2>(By the way, if you're saying novenas, I hear Jan is in the market for a Divine Intervention or two. Ask for the Geekfest Special at Hart's: Prayer Candles, 2 fer 1.)</font>

You know, Two 6 Pac, you've just uttered the two most dangerous words that have been uttered, so far, in this discussion: Quantum Mechanics. Otherwise known as the Monte principle ... as in, You get what you think you're going to get.

<font size=-2>(Note: This Law should not be confused with the Second Law of Geekfest-o-dynamics, which tells us that all discussions on Geekfest tend to increasing levels of disorder and decay.)</font>

But let's hop into the lead-lined box with Schrodinger's cat for a minute, shall we? Einstein would tell me that I can get shorter and younger if I travel near the speed of light. A quantum theorist would say, "It depends on who's watching when you fly by." Observation changes the experiment. Hence, science Itself has no choice but to admit the presence of consciousness.

Which doesn't mean that science admits the presence of God, per se. But science must certainly admit the principle of weirdness. As far as I can determine, the only real difference between scientists and the rest of us is that scientists are convinced that A Single Imaginary Vector stands between them ... and Total Knowledge. The rest of us just shrug and say, "Hey, I dunno. Whatever. It's weird."

And that, believe it or not, is 'bout all I'm inclined to say about the General Theory of God this evening. Not, I assure you, because I couldn't go on until ya'll are pleading for mercy and begging me to shut up. It's because I'm all excited about something else tonight, and here it is:

I just read an extended review/interview about a new a new book called Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. The author is a man who spent several years as the top economist for a company whose largest client was the World Bank. His job was to create over-enthusiastic economic "forecasts" for the countries we generally call "third world" so that said countries would agree to take on enormous debt and build the sort of huge construction projects that can only be carried out by companies like Brown & Root, Bechtel & Halliburton.

Point being ... Peace on Earth can be very bad for business. Point, as it relates to this thread, being ... even after we all recognize our common humanity and show respect for our fellow beings, there's still going to be a Step Two: We're going to have to give Halliburton et al something to replace the profits with. Same general principle of talking the bully out of taking Billy's cookie, eh?

What say ye?

[OvertheRiver]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kim:
[B] Now, why in the world would you feel it necessary to pray for Monte, OTR? Answer carefully. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/redface.gif

<font size=-2>(By the way, if you're saying novenas, I hear Jan is in the market for a Divine Intervention or two. Ask for the Geekfest Special at Hart's: Prayer Candles, 2 fer 1.)</font>

Well, Kim, I thought it was a compliment to you when I wrote it. I am sure that you and Monte would make a wonderful couple http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif; and, I also think that, if he ever had the bad sense to get crosswise with you (as your husband), there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth on his part.

And, I just can't imagine y'all getting up every morning - day after day - to seriously discuss how to acheive world peace over breakfast......

I fear Jan will have to get her novenas elsewhere....I know very little about the care and feeding of Catholic ritual! http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Two 6 Pac]

Actually, Schrodinger, Dirac and Heisenberg left that string dangling. A single definite result of an observation isn’t predicted. Possible outcomes are, and the likely hood of each. In short particles are in a quantum state. Uncertainty! Consciousness, cognitive state ? Well maybe!

Your new question calls for a, well theorem to be created. I’ll play. Perkins writes what has been corporate/government policy for years. I didn’t realize it to be news. That’s why I’m so confounded about peoples emotions getting so warped out of shape during elections. Just like blondie doesn’t run this town, politicians don’t run this country. There are “Men in Black”!
Global empire? Why sure! G8,World Bank, the Fed, one united Europe. More have been assassinated than just these two . But then Sondra is the conspiracy expert around these parts.

In the 70's I flew corporate jets for GE. Jack Welch and I, while not inner circle comrades by any means, had quite a bit of time together, nothing like a 30 year old scotch to loosen a person up. He never laughed at the little common man, in fact he respected him, but he would laugh his head off at the movers and shakers on the inside of the beltway. Get a bunch of Corporate big shots together in a 6 million dollar “timber company” owned quasi duck hunting cabin down in Stuttgart, and it becomes a battle of the ego’s. It’s a ego driven deal! Ego and money, which is the same as power!

Money moves everything. That’s all there really is.

Overlooking the next twenty years, I believe most recognize the obvious here. Destroy, rebuild. Starve, feed. Big money in perfecting destruction then saving the masses. It’s a real shame too because science has come so far and is on the cutting edge of doing such great things for mankind, but the escalating crap in the Mideast poops on all that.

Later? Nature! She’s a bitch to fool and meaner than a snake.

As mankind steadily advances down his road of self annihilation what once was taken for granted, and that’s probably the wrong word, will become his next hurdle. You and I will have already departed, but the remainder may just be in the ultimate battle for survival. Global destruction of the basics for life! Can’t have that, must save the human race! Hey big bucks in that gig! Planning already underway.


Prediction based on history, the sciences, absent of God.

Eventual failure. The end!

Maybe there is a God? Has this not been predicted?


I must add, this "is" just my pessimism showing.



[This message has been edited by Two 6 Pac (edited 01-01-2005).]

[Kim]

It's OK, OTR ... Jan isn't Catholic either. Come to think of it, neither am I. And the last time *I* was personally involved with putting money in a box and lighting a candle at a Catholic church, I ended up being held hostage by the local Altar Society. Which (probably) has nothing to do with my Episcopalian confirmation v2.1. Which is also a completely extraneous story that is outside the scope of this particular rant. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif

This must be the Vince Lombardi Theorem, Two 6 Pac:Money isn't everything. It's the only thing. Technically, at this point, I think I'd have to call that one a hypothesis.

As kismet would have it, I bungled across another article this evening. This time, it's about the scientific study of love. There's a bioethicist at Case Western Reserve U who has started up a foundation called the Institute for Research into Unlimited Love. (IRUL (http://www.unlimitedloveinstitute.org/welcome/)). They're doing things like using MRI's to see what empathy looks like in the brain... trying to figure out if veterans who believe in "divine love" are less prone to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder. Stuff like that. Technically, a more direct application of Science to Love that the examples aforementioned ...

... though I must note, since you obviously have Schroedinger's pet in your lap, the world can simultaneously suck and be perfect. Until we open the box, at which time, we see what we expect to see. You like Heisenberg? OK. The more you know about where the change is going, how big the change is going to be, and how fast we're going to get there (momentum) the less you know about where we are right now (position). On a totally unrelated note ... Dirac rules my life. I have never been anywhere in the world ... ANYWHERE ... where some local hasn't told me, "I know someone who looks JUST like you!" Clearly, this is a real world operation of antimatter because the world is evidently full of antiKims.

OK. Right. I'm getting weird here. Sorry. I hardly ever get the chance to tell stupid physics jokes. Obviously, this is a Good Thing.

Point being ... there's no particular reason to believe any view of the world over any other. Unless you are mystically inclined. Or unless you like math ... and you note, as you've done right here Two 6 Pac, that all possibilities are statically available. Including the bleak future you describe. Including the anti-bleak future some imagine. All the possibilities are in the lead-lined box ... and when we open the lid, what do we see? We see what we were expecting to see when we put our hands on the lid.

I do understand about the guys in the Stuttgart hunting lodge. I was thinking of those guys when I said, "So how do we replace Halliburton's profits once we all get to the point of respecting one another's' mutual humanity?"

Because there's probably a quantum view of humanity as well as a quantum view of the electron. People, as individuals, behave very differently than we do when we are members of a Group. Like, for example, the Group that Dominates All the Resources of Our Planet. That particular group is going to want something to replace the profits gained by killing people. What sort of venture makes more money than killing people? I think we need to figure that out.

I mean ... if we're going to walk over the drawbridge and confront the feudal lords, we ought to have something in our hands. We can't just say, "You need to do the Right Thing." Historically, that one doesn't work too well. If we really want to get somewhere, I suspect we're going to have to play Let's Make a Deal. So ... do we have a deal? An offer? If so, what is it?

By the way, OTR, don't worry about the anti-marriage of me and Monte in the anti-Universe (a/k/a Geekfest). We won't be agonizing over World Peace at breakfast ... because we've decided to adopt Two 6 Pac, so we're anti-worried about the anti-establishment music he's listening to and the apocalyptic posters on the wall of his room. We're thinking of signing him up for a class so he can learn to express his rage by making crafts with pipe cleaners and plastic daisies.

<font size=-2>(Two 6 Pac? Feel free to call me Mama. As in 'yo Mama. As in ... 'yo Mama wears army boots. Yo' mama so clumsy she got tangled up in a cordless phone. Yo mama so old she has a picture of Moses in her yearbook. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif)</font>

[TheMan@PhatProductions]

Discontent is the first necessity of progress.
-- Author: Thomas Alva Edison

[Two 6 Pac]

My new Mom! What do I say to my new Mom.
I love you Mom!

When do the craft projects start!

[James DeVito]

Discontent of Americans combined with the ability to communicate could result in effective change. We have the ability and we have the mechanism, but do we have the desire? Does it require leadership or collective consciousness?

[Two 6 Pac]

Collective consciousness? as in the Borg?
Maybe, sorry Kim for back peddling,
“The Unified Theory”?
Combining all we “know” in an effort to solve what we “don’t know” Mix the tiny with the big bake at 75k for Oh, let’s say a billion or so years. What cha got?

Leadership? Hell give me wheel, I'll drive!

Desire? There's the rub! We open the box to find what we expect to be in the box, but people don’t care anymore about what’s in the box! (or I should say most don’t) Apathy ?

The more I question the more I learn, the more I learn, the more I question!

Oh Mom, can my first project in crafts class be a cardboard light cone?
Future light events, Past light events. Hell I’m intrigued!

I'll call you from the future with all the answers! http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif

[becsflowers]

"Don' forGET your 20 bucks and a live chicken."

[OvertheRiver]

Originally posted by Kim:
By the way, OTR, don't worry about the anti-marriage of me and Monte in the anti-Universe (a/k/a Geekfest). We won't be agonizing over World Peace at breakfast ... because we've decided to adopt Two 6 Pac, so we're anti-worried about the anti-establishment music he's listening to and the apocalyptic posters on the wall of his room. We're thinking of signing him up for a class so he can learn to express his rage by making crafts with pipe cleaners and plastic daisies.


May I be the first to extend my congratulations to the three of you. And, if you ever get Two 6 Pac's anti-teenagerhood back on track, the three of y'all outta try discussing world peace at the breakfast table....now THAT would be entertaining. In fact, I'll COOK breakfast if y'all will let me sit in on a session or two - and it takes A LOT to get me to cook breakfast!

BTW, 6 Pac, if you'll send me sufficient quantities of deer tenderloin, I'll send you back some so good you'll beg me for the recipe! (Proviso - only so long as you send me enough that I get some too!)

[kbeem]

As long as the masses continue to take to heart the opinions (examples shown below) of a few powerful individuals, who can quite easily relay their messages to millions in today’s information age, I see an increase of tensions amongst peoples of differing religions. I don’t know how there can possibly be peace when far too many people use “religion” to dehumanise those who don’t follow the bible, Koran, or whatever other book they consider to be the “true” word of their “supreme being”.

****
The Jews are returning to their land of unbelief. They are spiritually blind and desperately in need of their Messiah and Savior. - Jerry Falwell, Listen, America!

****
"The Jews need conversion. They need to know that the Messiah is coming. And the Bible tells us what's going to happen." - Kay Arthur, US Evangelist, 2002

****
“You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Law of Allah, choose to implement your own inferior rules and regulations, thus following your own vain whims and desires. You run a society contrary to the nature of mankind by separating religion from your policies. So much so that people believe that even if they commit adultery, theft, and other wicked acts, as long as they go and confess, everything will be okay.” ... Osama Bin Laden, 2002

****

"There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world. How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy moneychangers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?" - Pat Robertson, The New World Order, p. 227, Word Publishing, 1991

****

"The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country." - Rev. Jerry Falwell, Sermon, July 4, 1976

****

"I think Mohammed was a terrorist. He - I read enough of the history of his life written by both Muslims and - and - non-Muslims, that he was a - a violent man, a man of war. In my opinion, and I do believe that - Jesus set the example for love, as did Moses. And I think that Mohammed set an opposite example." - Jerry Falwell, 2002

****

"When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. "What do you mean?" the media challenged me. "You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo-Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?" My simple answer is, "Yes, they are." - Pat Robertson, The New World Order

[Two 6 Pac]

BTW, 6 Pac, if you'll send me sufficient quantities of deer tenderloin, I'll send you back some so good you'll beg me for the recipe! (Proviso - only so long as you send me enough that I get some too!)

Don’t know about sending you any, unless you want me to crate up about 5 on the hoof and ship em your way. The recipe however I would love to have!

I haven’t hunted in years. As my nephews were growing up I always tried to spend time with them via hunting trips. Usually didn’t even take shells for my rifle.

A couple of years ago one of these little farts sent me a little styrofoam cooler containing some back strap . I had no idea of the contents, opened it up, reached inside and hell I thought it was the freaken alien! Shot it four times with my "9" before Cindy could stop me!

[OvertheRiver]

Originally posted by Two 6 Pac:
Don’t know about sending you any, unless you want me to crate up about 5 on the hoof and ship em your way. The recipe however I would love to have!

A couple of years ago one of these little farts sent me a little styrofoam cooler containing some back strap . I had no idea of the contents, opened it up, reached inside and hell I thought it was the freaken alien! Shot it four times with my "9" before Cindy could stop me!


Sorry not to take you up on your offer, but I've got enough of the live kind down here feasting on my "gourmet" garden. One of the little varmints burst out of the shrubs and almost knocked me down a while back. Also, I can't give away my recipe because, then, nobody would give me any tenderloin - they'd cook it themselves. I see it as self-preservation....

Never had the pleasure of working with backstrap. I think you have to be married or related to a deer hunter to get ahold of that! Be very nice to your nephews! Have you talked to Mom about how they fit into your new family?

[Kim]

Two 6 Pac? I love you too, son. But I'm a little worried about the crowd you're running with. I've read what John Grisham has to say about Memphis lawyers, and they sound like a dangerous lot. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif

OTR, you are welcome to sit in on our little anti-family group world peace therapy sessions any time. No breakfast required. You bring the leftover pizza, Twinkies, Doritos, Diet Pepsi & Rolaids. I'll bring the football helmets... Deal?

But now that I'm a new mother and all, I feel compelled to Be a Good Example. So it's time to practice the piano ... do our homework...feed the chickens ... slop the hogs...mend the fence on the north 40. Yes! There will BE no TV and no dessert until our chores are done! In this case, our chore is World Peace. <font size=-2>(Thank you. Geekfest is happy to accept the nomination of Candidate for Miss America.)</font>

Anyway ...

I read all your quotes, kbeem and I can't think of a chicken v. egg for this one. Not just because I'm afraid OTR is going to cook it and make me get up at some unearthly hour to eat it ... but because the general idea you propose is, to me, a flat-out moral dilemma.

I didn't catch any Jewish quotes in your list, so may I quote my favorite Jew? In this case, a Rabbi who is one of the leaders of the Jewish Spiritual Renewal movement. I'm paraphrasing here, but what this Rabbi says is, basically: "There is a place in the world for the people who are pillars of faith." Which I interpret as ... If not for the people who are willing to express the sternest possible view of whatever faith they embrace, how would the rest of us have any way to measure what WE believe?

The sort of comments that are made by people like Jerry Falwell can be inflammatory ... and then, in my case, they can be Beyond Demagogy. One day, I'm living that glamorous gay lifestyle ... washing dishes. Doing laundry. Checking homework. Next day, I wake up and say, "OMG! He's talking about ME!!! He's saying that *I* am personally responsible for 9/11!!!"

Can this be true, I wonder? Is God really punishing the US for "moral decay?" So I've been holding out for a few years ... waiting to see if God is going to take out Canada or Sweden or some other well known bastion of Liberal Moral Relativism. So far? No dice. God seems to be perfectly content to let everybody ELSE ignore the feminists and homosexuals within their borders... which either means that 1). Rev Falwell is misguided or 2). God's Holy Rolodex hasn't quite rolled around to the Canada & Sweden cards yet but, when it does, God help 'em.

I tend to believe the former, i.e. that God is unconcerned with feminists and homosexuals because God is ... well? God. By definition, a Being Who deals with larger issues than who does the dishes. But that doesn't mean I'm mad at Jerry Falwell. Because, I figure, what's the worst (spiritual) thing that can happen?

People are either going to hear what Rev Falwell says and say, "Yes! That's EXACTLY right!" And they're going to feel connected to Something. Or they're going to say, "What nonsense!" And they're still going to feel connected to Something. Something Else. But still ... Something.

It's kind of like what I said earlier: Do you think God really cares if we learn compassion by being concerned for someone else? Or if we get the general principle by feeling sorry for ourselves? What does God care how we GET it? As long as we get it?

Maybe there are people who are designed to provoke the sort of Attention to Connection we wouldn't have otherwise. Maybe Jerry Falwell and Osama bin Laden are people who have that particular karmic assignment. In the immortal (paraphrased) words of Monte: Maybe the idea of people who exist to force the rest of us to examine our own beliefs isn't much crazier than any other idea.

So, with this base belief in mind, when I read the words of charismatic people who lead other people to do extremely weird and/or deadly things ... I don't wonder so much about the power of the charismatic leaders. I wonder about their followers.

What is it that makes people roll their eyes back in their heads and chant? What makes 20% of the US vote for a President out of self-admitted homosexual panic? What makes some percentage, any percentage, of the Arab population strap on explosives so they can take out a number of Infidels (while committing spectacularly fiery suicide?)

This is another piece of World Peace, I think. We have to respect our fellow humans. Buy out the people who make money by keeping us at each others' throats. And then, I suspect, we'll have to provide a suitable replacement for the people ... ALL the people ... who need A Cause to rally 'round. So, if we're not going to blow ourselves up in the name of Allah or Fight to Keep Homos in Their Place, what would that cause be?

P.S. Casey, my daughter, brought a little story home tonight and I told her I would have to steal it and post it on Geekfest because it was relevant to a current thread. This is from a friend of hers, who is a Junior at ES High:

In Irish history, when the Irish people wanted to conquer a territory, they released wild pigs into their enemy's territory. The pigs destroyed all the crops and drove the people out of the land. Then the Irish came in and ate the pigs.

Moral of the story: We are the pigs and God is a big fat Irish guy who is going to BBQ us once we destroy the Earth.

I dunno ... somehow, this struck me as a fitting anecdote for this thread. What do you think? http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif


---------
If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. - US Supreme Court, 1943

[OvertheRiver]

Originally posted by Kim:
Two 6 Pac? I love you too, son. But I'm a little worried about the crowd you're running with. I've read what John Grisham has to say about Memphis lawyers, and they sound like a dangerous lot. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif


Yes, be afraid.....be very afraid....

Sorry, but it's just so hard to be serious in times like these http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/smile.gif

[becsflowers]

hmmmmmmm......foreplay on the ol' geekfest has taken an unexpected turn....
suddenly I visulize Two6Pac in a rubber thong .....

[Two 6 Pac]

Dearest Mom,

Well Mom, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking on this, more than in a long time. You know, about God and all. Thanks

This entire tsunami disaster. I keep watching coverage on CNN and it seems as though I have a skill that’s in need. One that I'm very good at. There’s a lot going on here in the US to help and I think I can contribute.

I haven’t changed my beliefs any, I do still gravitate to the more scientific, but let’s just see if cause does have effect. Besides a ticket would be good to have even if the train doesn’t show up.
Let’s see who was correct, St. Augustine or Aristotle

Besides I get bored practicing the piano and I used to get carried away auguring motions. (and excuse me but Diet Pepsi like really sucks )

Becs, The rubber thong? You funny girl!
Oh, and the foreplay, well it didn’t work!

[becsflowers]

"Let’s see who was correct, St. Augustine or Aristotle"

I'm gonna bet on Madame Theresa, 20 bucks and a live chicken.

[OvertheRiver]

Originally posted by becsflowers:
hmmmmmmm......foreplay on the ol' geekfest has taken an unexpected turn....
suddenly I visulize Two6Pac in a rubber thong .....

Hey, when I asked him to send me his tenderloins, I was talking about DEER tenderloins! http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Oh, you people have such dirty minds!

[Two 6 Pac]

Hell you two I’m trying to be serious! If I can help I’m going to.
It's what Mom would want

OTR: You’ll hear me coming! “Gourmet Garden”, kiss that sucker bye!
How about a few hundred pounds of Jet A raining down. Make for tasty herb!

Becs, Live chicken again? Okie Dokie I’ll handle you too!

[OvertheRiver]

Originally posted by Two 6 Pac:
Hell you two I’m trying to be serious! If I can help I’m going to.
It's what Mom would want

OTR: You’ll hear me coming! “Gourmet Garden”, kiss that sucker bye!
How about a few hundred pounds of Jet A raining down. Make for tasty herb!

Becs, Live chicken again? Okie Dokie I’ll handle you too!

6 PAC, remember Ihave FRIENDS who are Memphis lawyers, too! (Becs, I'll loan you a couple, if 6 PAC gets out of hand).

AND, I'm positive Mom will be proud of you in your endeavors to help, just so long as you keep your jet fuels to yourself http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Two 6 Pac]

How bout a hoard of locust

[OvertheRiver]

Originally posted by Two 6 Pac:
How bout a hoard of locust

Well,at least they are bio-degradable...

[becsflowers]

"Becs, Live chicken again? Okie Dokie I’ll handle you too!"

LOL!

[Lany Ballance]

Hmm. Excuse me for butting in here, please. After 40+ years of practicing piano, I have yet to become bored with it. (Well, at least after those first few years when Mom had to stand over me and make me practice my lessons [and before my imagination kicked in real good http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif] ...) In fact, I actually look forward to having time to practice.

May I make a suggestion? Try something different (after warming up with your scales and various exercises and practicing your prescribed lessons, of course): Stand on the other side of your piano and play it backwards (you may need to pull it out from the wall if necessary and/or possible). Or sit on the floor and reach up and manipulate the keys without looking at them. Or turn your sheet music upside down and play it that way. Or after dark, turn off all the lights and play in complete darkness or light a candle and do it by candlelight. "Invent" songs. Make up silly or sappy or whatever kind of lyrics you wish and let your voice accompany your phalanges. Let your "creative juices" flow!

In some ways, practicing an instrument is somewhat akin to practicing religion. If one finds what one is doing to be unsatisfying, there remains the option of trying an alternative method to stave off tedium or simply to see what happens when you approach it in a different manner. And then, there's always the option of "chucking it all out the window" and choosing a completely different path.

But it doesn't have to be boring. Take my word for it. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/smile.gif Happy Keyboarding!

[Two 6 Pac]

All butts are welcome here. Those sound like fun things to do. I get bored because the more I practice, the worse I get!

I love it, other than I'm just not good.
I get bored at things I'm not good at. Hope Lucy's not listening

[This message has been edited by Two 6 Pac (edited 01-04-2005).]

[becsflowers]

Actually, OTR, you may have to fed ex me a couple o' lawyers...(O M G... did I ACTUALLY REQUEST LAWYERS???? LOL!)
Because, it looks like I am gonna have to grab up Two 6 pac by the seat of his li'l rubber thong (? Seat? They have a SEAT?) and haul him over to his "Mom's" for a spankin'.... he's threatenin' LOCUSTS....
"MOM!!! Mooooommmmmm...... 12 cans is bothering me with locusts......."
(Hear me tattle here?) LOL!!!

Hmmmmmmm......actually, his MOM might let ME spank him... be SURE you git them there lawyers here lickety split.....

[Lany Ballance]

Oh, and P.S.: You might oughta check with your momma first before you attempt any of my suggestions. She may tell you I'm off my rocker and command you to totally ignore me! In which case, I'd be the first to admit it's usually a good idea to listen to your momma.

http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[becsflowers]

Madame theresa says it'll be 40 bucks and a live chicken if Lucy watches.

[becsflowers]

"after warming up with your scales "

Do locusts HAVE scales?

[Two 6 Pac]

Originally posted by becsflowers:
Madame theresa says it'll be 40 bucks and a live chicken if Lucy watches.

It'll have to be with a telescope, the court papers were very specific. 250yds

[becsflowers]

LOL!!!!!! "Film at 11!"

[OvertheRiver]

I leave the office for 45 minutes and look what happens. I'm tellin' Mom.

Becs, a little advice. Lawyers don't ship well, so once you send me the money to rent a limo to take them from here to there, I'll pack 'em up! Lawyers also don't keep well. I suggest the freezer; I'll make sure the bar in the limo is well-stocked, so they should give you no trouble when you put them away. Thaw in microwave until done.

Secondly, Becs, if you're going to haul up 6 Pac (12 cans, that's FUNNY) by his thong seat, I suggest you wear gloves. Hope he's not allergic to vinyl...

Thirdly, I've never intentionally gotten close enough to a locust to see what it's covered with!

Lany, I agree on piano. After your mom MAKES you practice for about 5 years or so, then you get to where you want to play all the time. Probably the main problems with the generations after us is that their own moms' DIDN't force them to practice piano. Now, 12 Cans, (I just love that) don't you shirk on your piano playing!

[montelinn]

Look what happens when I'm gone for a couple of days. Had to work a little(lol). I guess I'm the daddy in this little group of misfits. Very proud! Hon, can I get you a beer? 2 six pac, glad to have you in on this conversation but seems the subject is lost. Having too much anti-fun. Need a lawyer in Memphis if OTR is not available? Mine is Mark S. McDaniel(also goes by Mac). Been my lawyer for 20 or so years. Funny thing though, I moved to Nixa 12 1/2 years ago and my eye doctor here is Mark's Brother in law,get this Daniel Boone. I couldn't make this stuff up.

[becsflowers]

Tell Mr Boone his ad should read:

"Daniel Boone: A Sight for Sore Eyes"
LOL!

[becsflowers]

ooooooooooo!!!!!! Latex gloves! What a WONDERFUL idea....

"Oh 12 cans....where ARE youuuuu.....come to mama, baby!"

[becsflowers]

Madame Theresa says the price just went up another 20; she's just now figured out how to make a living in the Ozarks in the winter...

[sweetness&light]

Lordy, lordy. Looks like sense and sensibility has to step in here and bring us back in line. "Locusts"...."lawyers".... Envision, if you will, the pig standing here with dainty pink pig palms upturned with locusts in the left hand and lawyers in the right (or reverse them if you feel locusts go with the "right" group and lawyers more liberal...pardon me, I had a fit of laughter while typing this). Anyway, picture the pig weighing them to discern the weighty difference. Come to your own conclusions. I'm waiting for the seagulls to fly in and eat the locusts.

Becs, about 6pac's rubber thong: has he become incontinent? Or is it because he's going to another continent? It's all just so confusicating.

Here's another take on creation vs. evolution vs. the big bang theory. Back in the days before printing presses were invented and most folks were illiterate, the bible was either conceived as a book of history which is what most christians believe today...or as a vast selection of fables verbally handed down to generations for the purpose of guidelines on what was considered acceptable and unacceptable behaviors/lifestyles. Now, as we all know, if it was intended as precise history, translating from one language to another is rather dicey as it takes only one tiny little word to change the entire meaning of the stories. For all we know, some things that we are told today that God frowned on just may have been that he didn't frown on them. The leaders of the day either misinterpreted that one little word accidentally or did it on purpose to suit their own needs or ability to control people.

Another view is that having leaders who wished to rule vast populations would have an easier time of convincing the people to abide by set rules if it was included from a higher power based in faith that this unseen power actually existed and had total control over all. In other words, mind your p's and q's 'cuz Somebody is watchin' you. People seemed to like this idea as they could judge their neighbors against themselves and the leaders had an easier time getting everyone to sort of step in line....part of the time, but never all of the time. Man still has that "I'll behave as long as I want to." Could be the reason for the continuation of wars to this day.

Then there is the sect who is not quite sure there is a higher power, but doesn't want to piss him/her off by coming right out and saying so. Combined with the ones who do have faith, it is rather somewhat covered in the Beatles' song, "Whatever Gets You Thru the Night."

Becs, as for the thong party...count me in. I've got a vast array of my thongs already packed in my navel. I'm ready as soon as you and Madam Theresa pluck those chickens and get down to some serious frying. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Two 6 Pac]

Snort Snort http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[becsflowers]

"Becs, about 6pac's rubber thong: has he become incontinent? Or is it because he's going to another continent? It's all just so confusicating."

None of the above...Madame Theresa thinks if Kim is gonna be his MAMA that he better get into the "stretch" of things...
and anybody with a screen name like two 6 pacs should have NO TROUBLE slipping into something like a rubber thong...AFTER two 6 pacs, that is....
and besides, Madame Theresa thinks it would be kinda fun to watch the li'l rubber thong....
oh, never mind. Her price has ALREADY climbed to 60 bucks and a live chicken.

The price of "spankin'" just keeps goin' up, don't it?

[Two 6 Pac]

Do I hear $65.00?

[2100]

It might be interesting to note that, when the Big Bang Theory was first introduced, it was poo-pooed as bringing a potential creator into the scientific mix. The universe was considered infinite and basically stable, with no 'beginning'. A starting point for the universe opened the doors of science to speculation of a starter.

For myself, I'm hoping quantum theory finds a giant invisible turtle carrying the Earth on its back!

[OvertheRiver]

I think we've sufficiently trashed this thread.......

[2100]

I have that effect on women, too.

[Two 6 Pac]

One last thing before we let this mess die. The crack about Lucy was just that, a crack! Nothing more!

Just a wise ass crack, made by me your typical wise ass!

Sorry LC

[DLinn]

A couple of years ago one of these little farts sent me a little styrofoam cooler containing some back strap . I had no idea of the contents, opened it up, reached inside and hell I thought it was the freaken alien! Shot it four times with my "9" before Cindy could stop me!

[/B][/QUOTE]

I laughed so hard when I read this paragraph. Hi Ya'll! Sending some Love from South Carolina!

This reminds me of something that happened a few times to me in a past life...

My ex-husband loves to rabbit hunt. He would kill the little fellows and lay them in the front floor board, passenger's side of his full sized Bronco...where they'd stay for a while, sometimes a week or so. We worked opposite shifts at the same plant and on a couple of occasions, he would send me out to the truck in the dark, early morning to fetch something from the truck.

I'd open the door, reach in to the floor board, and unsuspectingly run my hand over a cold, hard, hairy something laying in the floor. I was wishing for a "9" at that moment but not for the bunny.

[OvertheRiver]

Originally posted by Two 6 Pac:
One last thing before we let this mess die. The crack about Lucy was just that, a crack! Nothing more!

Gee, we all thought the order was AGAINST you!

[DLinn]

Yo Man!

Glad to hear you've been working! I have really enjoyed reading the comments and see many things I believe to be true. You must be a prophet bro'. Your quotes are being referred to as "Monteism's". Quotes from the mountain!

Did you hear that the Arab TV is telling the Mideastern Muslims that a nuclear or nukular bomb set off by Saudi Arabia, Israel and the US is what caused the tsunami?

How can "We the People" 1. be sure that this is not true? 2. Stop the damaging rumor from spreading and becoming a catalyst for more murder?

[This message has been edited by DLinn (edited 01-04-2005).]

[Two 6 Pac]

Why the hell do you think I'm making such a gut wrenching disclaimer? http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[DLinn]

"Did you hear that the Arab TV is telling the Mideastern Muslims that a nuclear or nukular bomb set off by Saudi Arabia, Israel and the US is what caused the tsunami?"

One cleric is also saying that the tsunami was caused by fornication! What was that bumper sticker, "If the RV is rockin', don't bother knockin'"!

[OvertheRiver]

Originally posted by Two 6 Pac:
Why the hell do you think I'm making such a gut wrenching disclaimer? http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


Oops, sorry....

[OvertheRiver]

DLinn....welcome! I don't live there either, but I audit frequently....

[DLinn]

Originally posted by OvertheRiver:
DLinn....welcome! I don't live there either, but I audit frequently....

Thanks for the welcome OTR. Been enjoying the conversation.

[Kim]

Monte, I definitely need a beer hon. Will you bring the bottle of Don Julio while you're at it? And some Prozac for the children?

Where did we go wrong!? [wringing hands] We certainly didn't raise them to be this way! We've tried to give them our values. We've tried to teach them a thing or two. We gave 'em pianos ... and all they do is eat the keys!

Obviously, they've been hanging around with a bunch of Memphis Lawyers. Now that they've been to the The Pyramid, there'll be no getting 'em back to the farm.

[shaking head sadly]

But The Swine is struggling mightily to cast pearls before us so I'll struggle mightily to continue this conversation with her. Mama wants to watch her soaps, children. Run along and play.

Sweetness? Was that your answer to "why do people follow charismatic leaders?" I'm not sure I got your point, what with all the tenderloin, children, butts, locusts, live chickens, dead rabbits, nukular bombs, rubber thong snappin' and big bangin'.

Come to think of it, IS there a point? I mean, other than the scientific operation of the Second Law of Geekfest-o-dynamics?

Old Geekfest threads never die. They just achieve their state of maximum entropy.

---------

One day Jesus was walking by the pearly gates when St. Peter stopped him and asked if he could watch the gates whilst he went to the loo. Jesus agreed and began letting people in. After a few minutes he saw a stooped old man approaching. He was so old that he could barely walk, and his white beard ran down to the floor. When Jesus asked if he could help, the old man advised him in a shaky voice that he was looking for his son. Jesus wanted to help but didn't think he could as there were millions of people there.

"I know I can identify him very easily by the holes in his hands and feet," said the old man.

Jesus stares curiously at the wizened figure before him, "Father...?" he asked.

The old man looks at Jesus and says,

"Pinocchio...?"

[montelinn]

Kim that was brave. I'll post so not to leave you hanging on the last post. What a family! And I must give a shout out to sis. You guy's are going to get a bang out of her(DLinn). Yes this is my older sister. If you ever need your day to be brightened just ask for her. She is a major character. Damn it looks as if we are having a family reuinion right here on geekfest.

Donnas, you have to remember to play nice. I live here and do business here.(LOL) Cuz, sis is here!

[Andy McDonald]

Not to distract from the family gathering,

OH and Congrates to Montel and Kim!!

But, is it believed here on this thread that Christianity and Science are mutually exclusive? A scientist can not be a Christian or a Christian can not be a scientist?

[Two 6 Pac]

BUT, George Washington's brother was the Uncle of Our Country!

[OvertheRiver]

Originally posted by Andy McDonald:
But, is it believed here on this thread that Christianity and Science are mutually exclusive? A scientist can not be a Christian or a Christian can not be a scientist?

No, not by me, anyway...

[montelinn]

Hey I got another one. This was "smoked up " induced thirty years age.

You know how electrons, and protons swril around a nucleus. This kind of looks like a small solar system. If this were the molecular level and we were looking up, wouldn't the galaxies kind of look like cells. Putting many of these together would kind of look like the known Universe. So there could be a supreme being and we could be smaller than a cell floating around in his body somewhere. So this would still make us "one with God".

[James DeVito]

The more science reveals, the greater the power of God. Can you contain God within the confines of the church or the pages of the bible? How come God was speaking to people on a regular basis thousands of years ago, and has said nothing worth writing down in the last two thousand?

[becsflowers]

"...has said nothing worth writing down in the last two thousand? "

#1. Because NOW we have the internet?

#2. He has. Nobody's listening to him.

[becsflowers]

"Hey I got another one. This was "smoked up " induced thirty years age.
You know how electrons, and protons swril around a nucleus. This kind of looks like a small solar system. If this were the molecular level and we were looking up, wouldn't the galaxies kind of look like cells. Putting many of these together would kind of look like the known Universe. So there could be a supreme being and we could be smaller than a cell floating around in his body somewhere. So this would still make us "one with God". "

OK, Mon....THIS is exactly how I remember it too! I MUST have known you 35 years ago. Or was it in a "previous" life? LOL!!!

[Two 6 Pac]

How come God was speaking to people on a regular basis thousands of years ago, and has said nothing worth writing down in the last two thousand?

Maybe he has!

[kbeem]

Man simply cannot accept his own demise so he then created a “supreme being” who has promised him “life after death”, hence man will now live forever.

[Two 6 Pac]

Is that a bad thing?

[James DeVito]

Thinking about some of the people I have met, and the prospect of them living forever, yea, that`s a bad thing.

[sweetness&light]

Well, yes Kim, that was my point...sort of...but I also think it fits into why and how people feel the need for faith in a higher power. Jeez, somebody's got to take the ultimate blame for the things man has done throughout history. Fancy the idea that man (yes, that does include woman, too) would always accept and wear the mantle of blame. Ooooh, too scary! Let's have the blame go to someone never seen, yet someone everyone has spoken of thru the centuries.

So, yes...that's one reason why sheep..er..lemmings...I mean people...follow charismatic leaders right over the edge of the precipice to their doom and a variety of reasons why they follow religious/spiritual/whatever leaders. (This will probably incite becs to reflect on the moonies...pardon me while I break into a few choruses of "Moon Over Miami.") http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif Comfort in numbers, body heat from like minds huddling together and someone to fetch chocolate and beer during the commercials. Checking my chocolate odometer and it is almost past due for my 20 minute Hershey and almonds fix. Blasted humans! I ask so little of them...and get so little in return. Their paychecks shall reflect the giving and receiving accordingly. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Carry on, darlings.

[MotherMoon12]

Isn't Kim still to blame for everything in the universe? I didn't get the memo if that has changed.

[sweetness&light]

Gasp!! Mother Moon...are...are you..are you saying Kim is the ultimate deity? Of course! (Pig slapping pig's knuckles to forehead) The answer has been here all along. That's why she took on all the blame lo those years ago and why she asks leading questions.

Sing it loud, sing it proud: "I can see clearly now...."

Whew! Another geekfest problem solved. Now maybe if I ask her really nicely, she'll find me some decent human workers who can tell the difference between Spam and chocolate before I administer either or both as enemas to the offending blockhead. Good help is just almost impossible to find (yes, I hear all of you out there). http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Two 6 Pac]

ouch

[2100]

"…that man (yes, that does include woman, too) would always accept and wear the mantle of blame."

Is a thong of blame available, as well? What colors do they come in?

(Sorry, somebody had to ask it!)

[OvertheRiver]

Originally posted by 2100:
[BIs a thong of blame available, as well? What colors do they come in?
[/B]

Sack cl