View Full Version : Motivated by Tax or Recent Facts?

Persona Non Gratis
08-01-2002, 12:46 AM
I have never posted on here and doubt I will again, but being a professional and in NWA, I think I can bring a different view to your ongoing discussions of late in your city. I have a weekend place there and have always enjoyed getting away and relaxing and enjoying the finer things of your city. I have been following this in the paper etc and find it quite interesting. There is more to this than some of you realise, people are in place to affect Eureka, based on the almighty buck.
I can tell you that I think your Mayor might be in the wrong by getting behind on the tax issue. I myself have handled issues like that in the past in my duties of employment.
This tax thing has been around sometime as I recall. Its not a new issue is it? Its kinda like Propoganda, Its been around a long time also has it not. I can tell you that I feel your mayor is being targeted, yes by a great right wing conspiracy. Why now, why an election year, what has changed in Eureka. There is obviously a power elite in the community who knows a little about the power of the media , manipulation and the nature of you folks in your fine community. Eureka has always interested me, its quite a cultural geosink, two groups diabolically and economically and culturally opposed to each other, with a merchant class of shop owners, artists, etc. You people in Eureka are fighting a cultural war, its that simple.
I mean its as different as Ozark Village Buffet and Rogues Mannor.
What your right wing there knows is the left wing never really stands together. The right will stand together even when they know their guy is wrong, for the greater good of the cause, and I thought thats what that whole 60-70's thing was about, all I can say what a bunch of sell outs as a generation. That was part of the whole movement of the 60's- early 70's seek change at all cost rebel from the system. They are basically playing a divide and concur game with you all. They know that the base is divided and power is not far from the taking, maybe theyr'e striving for excellence, i think not. Maybe its about caring for the community, once again I think not. What your local good old boys know that some of you don't is that Eureka is becoming a very desired community, not so much for tourism but what its going to become or what they wish to sell it for. NWA just made the Forbes top 20 as places to live, invest in property, starting a new business etc. Check it out, its in the top 20 out of 200 places over major cities etc. The move for power is now, this is about money, power and influence. Your mayor is hated not so much for his tax problem but for other reasons that stops it from becoming Disneyland, Branson etc. Really look at it, most of the WW11 Generation is dying off, they were the people that rode the busses to your community, ate at the highway establishment restaurants etc. Those people are losing money in your city, the baby boom genration is going to retire and start traveling real soon, all the millions of them,and they don't take the buss Gus, they are a more discriminating bunch, and the turkey in the straw game just won't play to them. Thats why an international company is developing a complex on the lake in Branson for 300 million with high end restaurants etc. Things are going to change in the next 5 - 7 years and removing your mayor and his visions are just part of the plan, just watch and see what happens. Watch what property is being bought and sold, who is being forced to sell, the harrassment is just starting ,others are going to fall to the path of the mayor, see this is less motivated by tax than a stratagy in place by a few for control of a city thats going to be worth much more than it is today in the near future. Remember 95% of all stocks traded daily are owned by 5% of the population. Take it to a smaller scale , I don't know but I would bet that 50-70% of key property is owned by a few interests bound together by the same interests in Eurkea. People have had the state called to get this guy, if he wasn't mayor would they even look into him. Maybe people should look into them. I don't think its so much about being mayor as being a guy from what I read is aiming at a whole different demographic to come to your city, I am not talking about the working poor who walk the streets of Eureka. Thats going to change based on the changing demographic of NWA anyway, will they be coming there for beans and cornbread, I doubt it. Granted he is held to a higher standard and he should be, I agree, but look at the motivations, I worry it won't be the little town I came to love, when we discovered it. Will there be anymore awards for preservation. You guys have strict codes for preservation etc. When big money takes hold and it will very soon, things are going to change unless you unite now. I am not just talking about your little group trying to oust your mayor, there are going to be others coming from California etc. NWA is in the top 7 growth areas in the nation and most people are coming from California. They will see the opportunities and move on them as well. If you are going to burn your mayor for tax, think of why you voted for him to begin with. I cannot vote there but if I did I would look at whats really going on. I personally think you as a community are being lead to a rush to judgement. I suggest to you people a legal defense fund for the mayor. He just might need support from old friends etc. Who knows who will be kicked next in your fine little town. To quote a Jonny Cochranism "Its not about the Tax, its about the Facts!".

08-01-2002, 08:19 AM
This is exactly Royals repeated theme that so many are quick to brush off as eccentric, bitter or extreme. Its how I’ve interpreted Royals opinion of his somewhat personalized observations on the bank, the CDP, YUMA, et al. NOTHING that Persona Non Gratis states here about Eureka’s potential for economic expansion is far fetched or removed from reality. Not a damned thing. I guess it takes an outsider to give it an economists clarity and perspective. It’s the way of the world and I watched the same thing happen over a 20 year period to small and remote suburbs of LA – completely swallowed up by its massive neighbor so the boundaries are indiscernible. In the early 70’s there was no doubt when you left Fayetteville and entered Springdale, Rogers and Bentonville. I did not buy my property at the lake in a vacuum, wondering if it would ever appreciate. This is part of my grandchildren’s inheritance.

Can’t tell you how many times in the last month I’ve want to toss a challenge out to this group but have been just too chicken. The temptation to suggest this challenge was based upon the lack of declared candidates for mayor. And, my challenge would have been based upon not really knowing much of Mayor Satori’s “sins” or missteps as mayor. The challenge would have been very simple and in the interest of fair play. In an attempt to bring things in to perspective, it would have run like this: List a mayoral screw-up, but for every screw up you must list 2 good deeds or initiative’s that have benefited the city or its citizens. Simple really.

I’ve often wondered, in ignorance mind you, if Beaus biggest shortcoming isn’t arrogance. He’s pissed people off. It’s endemic to intelligence mixed with power. Sorry Beau, but I’ve seen it a million times and fallen victim myself. I can also gather from many of these posters here that you are not alone in this little berg; you just have a larger spot light following every step. He is also hated because he does not appear to be in anyone’s pocket. That alone is worth more than a few votes in my book. And as for doing things “hiz way”, maybe Beau needed to listen more. But once again, is there a tit for every tat here? How many times did he listen and how many times did he not? Is there a score card somewhere? At least he’s not doing it THEIR way and lining hiz pockets in the process. If he were, then hiz taxes would be paid.

One point I think I have learned during all of this is that Beau fought very hard to keep Eureka historically pure. From what I gather there is a group afoot that will work very hard to undo all of this and it’s their candidate, announced or unannounced, that Eureka’s citizens needs to work very hard to keep out of office if you wish to keep Eureka pure. Or else, enjoy living in Branson #2.

My guess is, if my little game, my challenge, were played and you all dug deep enough with fairness, the list of contributions on Mayor Satoris part might outweigh his missteps.
(And I DON’T want to hear the stupid gossip. “my friend has a friend has a friend who has a friend who said) This isn’t a campaign to re-elect Satori. He probably can’t and won’t run again. I don’t know about the “Mayoral Defense Fund” – you guys are the experts here. It’s just a vote for fairness and a hear-hear, follow-up to what I consider a very valid post on the part of Persona Non Gratis. This election could very well be a major turning point in Eureka history and a misstep on the part of voters could seal her fate.

Sorry if my post always sound like lectures - they are not meant to be - they are always just opinions.

08-01-2002, 08:26 AM
Velly intellisting, and not funny at all!
Those to whom this comes as a surprise.. and those that are perpetrating this.... spew your cheerios this morning?
Talk amongst yourselves.
I think our "newbie" could be so right on, it hurts! Now what?
Can anyone pause in their vehement suspicion of Beau to examine these allegations? (I think you are right, Lucinda, I doubt that he can recover from all this to run again.. but.. who will?)

[This message has been edited by PMilam (edited 08-01-2002).]

08-01-2002, 08:33 AM
Y'all sound real smart. I'm not sure there is a place here for such clarity and wisdom. Some of us have been saying similar things for a long time. Progress is not necessarily bad in and of itself. However, unplanned and un-prepared-for progress is scary. It would seem a lot of us old hippies and artists are not needed or wanted here now. We need to either leave, change our ways, or get ready for a fight. The choices are up to us right now. I think we need to educate ourselves so we are able to make informed decisions.

08-01-2002, 08:34 AM
Persona Non Gratis, thank you for the heads up.
Seems like a good time to hear from our candidates, and a great time to unite.

“What your right wing there knows is the left wing never really stands together. The right will stand together even when they know their guy is wrong, for the greater good of the cause, and I thought thats what that whole 60-70's thing was about, all I can say what a bunch of sell outs as a generation.”

Hey Lefty! You wanna join hands?
Come on people now, smile on your brother every body get together try to love one another right now!!

"Eureka has always interested me, its quite a cultural geosink, two groups diabolically and economically and culturally opposed to each other, with a merchant class of shop owners, artists, etc. You people in Eureka are fighting a cultural war, its that simple."

08-01-2002, 08:35 AM
And, I'm far to new here to identify these people Persona is refering to but I'm sure most of you can. I can only guess at a few. And when Beau's tax issue hit national news I did take note. That only happens when someone knows someone - this I know from my years in the media.

One thing is for certian. If I had my millions, real estate in Eureka and on the lake is where I would invest the majority.

Larry Williams
08-01-2002, 08:40 AM
Persona Non Gratis,

In part you wrote: "...People have had the state called to get this guy, if he wasn't mayor would they even look into him. ..."

I've heard rumors to this effect. I've also heard some claims as to who was involved. Can you document this? If not, can you direct us to someone who can? Is there any proof?

You also wrote: "I cannot vote there...." Why not? Everyone else seems to be able to vote here. I would suspect that many who vote in Eureka also get to vote twice for many offices and issues by also voting where they really live.

08-01-2002, 08:42 AM
Larry, I'd suspect that Persona's second home is at the lake.

I think, in one of Royal's posts he alluded to a "gray area" regarding voting via a post office box. Has this been tried, tested, challenged? I'd love to see the face of a Eureka election if we disenfranchised lakies entered the arena.

[This message has been edited by Lucinda (edited 08-01-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Lucinda (edited 08-01-2002).]

08-01-2002, 08:56 AM
We live about a mile outside of town but have had a PO box for years. I have always contended we should be able to vote in city elections. Seems like a few years ago it was mentioned you have to sleep at your address on occasion or some such. Anyone want to just leave some sleeping bags at the post office and whoever has a free night can sleep there? It just might work.

Becky Davis
08-01-2002, 09:08 AM
The words of Persona non Gratis are almost exactly the same I heard from a businessman/guest two years ago at the Crescent Hotel.
He said he would be putting a group of twenty or so of the wealthiest (some on Forbes list) men in America to return to AR and scout the state.

Steve Beacham
08-01-2002, 09:22 AM
I voted for Beau because he stated over and over that with his years of being part of the political scene in ES, he could
help bring groups together for the greater good.

One of his first actions in office was the removal of several CAPC commissioners. Many of whom would have left within months as their term expired. This action created a
divide amongst many members of the community.

I admired the fact that years before the Millennium, Beau decided to let his hair grow and in honor of the new millennium, would cut it off. When it came time for action, Beau decided not to do it.

Beau seems to enjoy controversy and helps to create it. I support his right to do so. However, the position of Mayor should be to bring compromise and diplomacy to the table,
not controversy.

I know that the history of ES Mayors is usually one term. I also know that there is a historical divide of -business vs.
citizens--Tree huggers vs. stump heads--silk stockings vs. mohawks.

If you look at the original good old boys club of ES. The ES Improvement Company of the 1800’s, you will notice they did many
good things for the city, but probably lined their pockets as well. Some times it seems that people were never meant to live in this valley

08-01-2002, 09:32 AM
A friend of mine was visiting with a woman who’d lived here for many, many, many years. She told him that Eureka problems will be completely solved when 5 new graves are finally added to the cemetery. Problem is, she wouldn’t tell him which names will be on the headstones.

08-01-2002, 09:37 AM
In my opinion, Beau is just an emotional peg on which to hang one's hat. The situation is much larger than that. Let's not lose sight of the big picture. Getting hung up on personalities like we usually do will just cause things to deteriorate like they always seem to do. Step outside yourselves and your prejudices for a minute. There has to be a positive path here.

08-01-2002, 09:59 AM
"...pack up the babies, grab the old ladies and everyone goes..."
The Californians are already here and have been for some years. Each time a building downtown is sold to someone from out of state, it is more than frequently a Californian. Lodging...same thing with more people coming in from other western states. They are also coming here in droves to retire. Why? Because that's where the money is in real estate and when they sell their house or rental properties in CA, they are looking for more bang for their bucks and a more peaceful place...memories of their youth growing up with Petticoat Junction and Andy Griffith Show...and that would be us...here. Isn't that the reason most of us moved here? Beautiful, small, old town in perfect, natural surroundings? Unbelievably cheap real estate prices in comparison to LA, NYC, MN? I have seen more businesses sell this past year than in the last 8 or 10 years. Big houses being built...not for those who work here...they couldn't afford to rent the 4 car garage.

That is why I have harped about marketing outside of the 5 states box which Eureka has done for the last 20+ years. Everyone said CA was too far away, NY was too far away. Those folks had lived in this divine jewel box a little too long and weren't familiar with the reality of the encroaching road to our paradise. Thankfully, PIMs listened and took the first step to advertising outside of the area.

This is a fair warning/heads up to not just let big money steam roller over you without banding together against such people who really do believe we have a hillbilly mentality and are dyed-in-the-wool mushrooms.

This is nothing new and has been going for hundreds of years. Look to your history books wherever something of beauty or riches was discovered by man. Everyone flocked to the site, dug it up, cut down its trees, dirtied its water in the name of progress and then once the riches or natural beauty was gone...so were the people who came there. And on to the next new "undiscovered" treasure. After man has come in and renovated a site and driven real estate prices up, it's onto the next cheap parcel and when the state is hovering around the bottom of the barrel in income and education...guess where man is headed for his next renovating? Why, he's going to do all those poor folk a big favor by giving them a better, modern life by paying the least amount of money possible for their property and giggle all the way to the bank.

As far as the tax situation with the mayor, this has been an ongoing publicized matter since he became mayor; it's nothing new and has routinely made the papers, as did his voting twice, etc., etc. So did Clinton's escapades, Bush's drinking daughters...ever since tv and the rest of the media has become a huge center of our lives to the point we know what politicians are doing at almost any given time. Anyone can call the State and turn in someone for back taxes and the phone number was posted on this bbs as were two of the people who called the State named in the paper; no secret there.

This town is nowhere the same as it was less than 10 years ago, let alone the changes MotherMoon12 and Royal have seen since they've been here. I would love to have preserved it in a bell jar as it was the first time I saw it, but it, like all living things, would have died without oxygen. Anything living will always change. The trick is to know how to guide it without losing what made it special. Things like casinos, "affordable" housing, etc., would totally change Eureka Springs and change is not always a good thing, Martha.

S. Jones
08-01-2002, 10:35 AM
"what a bunch of sell outs as a generation."

Isn`t that the truth!?!? Reminds me of a woodstock reunion commercial I saw one where this bald guy in a suit is saying to this lady all decked out in a dress and jewlery "Moonflower?" Another group in business suits are looking out into the feild saying "And over here we could have condos, a golf course and a strip mall..."

08-01-2002, 10:40 AM
Wasn't the Mayor working with the state with his taxes?

Didn't a accountent that used to work for the good old boys go to work for the state?

Isn't that accountent now over the tax
collection for the state or something like that?

Wasn't that accountent in Eureka a couple of months ago meeting with the good old boys?

Did'nt that accountent take away the collection agent that the Mayor has been working with and assume the job himself?

Did'nt things change right after that?

When we moved here without knowing anyone why were we warned by several people about the good old boys?

Royal ol Royal the vision of reality not wolf did he cry still no one listened.
Maybe it is not to late or maybe we shall watch the $ticks suck the blood from this great town.
You can bank on it.

Royal ol Royal the vision of reality

08-01-2002, 11:11 AM
What I'll find interesting about THIS particular thread is thems that remain silent here.

Royal Alcott
08-01-2002, 11:55 AM
These names and titles have been copied from a handout delivered to media on the occasion of the CDP press conference at the pink house:

Jack Moyer, President
Barbara Dicks, secretary
Charlie Cross, treasurer
Terry Cook, economic developement chairman
Wade Williams, legal advisor
Billy Batson, house painting leader
Becky Rheinhardt(state of Arkansas ADED)
Ben Carson
Ed Leswig, Black Bass Lake leader
Ed Robertson
James DeVito
Johnice Cross, plaque program leader
Jon Loudermilk
Judi Selle
Melissa Sherman
Ken Smith
Kim Dickens
Marshall Turner
Reck Wallis
Sandy Wright
Sara Armellini

Kaye Miller
08-01-2002, 01:41 PM
I believe the words double standard fit here.

If any of the aboved named people were mayor and had done what the present mayor has done, who do you think would be leading the pack to tar and feather them?????

Again it is the new comers and those not living here that want to cure the ills. I hope you can.

MotherMoon, if you try to vote even once in a city election, who do you think would be screaming the loudest?? Have you forgotten that mess???

Again - double standards.

Ready for Royal now.

[This message has been edited by Kaye Miller (edited 08-01-2002).]

08-01-2002, 02:03 PM
Hun, it was just a facetious comment. Of course I won't vote. Nothing would be worth moving back into town. I love Eureka and the Ozarks, but living in town is too difficult.

08-01-2002, 02:05 PM
Well the entire thing almost has me bothered enough to open a bead shop and sleep in the store room.

Royal Alcott
08-01-2002, 02:24 PM
Ms Miller-

What does the list of the CDP Steering Committee have to do with the mayor?

If there are ills the newcomers and those not living here want to cure, why are they a secret?

What double standard are you proclaiming?

These are simple questions. Do you have truthful answers?

08-01-2002, 02:49 PM
If the mayor was the target did
Chez Charles get hit with a stray arrow?
umm I ummm???

Kaye Miller
08-01-2002, 02:59 PM
Royal, I am not going to get into a word fest here. I said what I meant. Again, twist it any way you want. I think double standard is pretty self explanatory.


[This message has been edited by Kaye Miller (edited 08-01-2002).]

Royal Alcott
08-01-2002, 04:45 PM
Ms Miller-
I do not know what you meant.

I do not know what the steering committee membership has to do with the mayor.

I do not know what the newcomers and those not living here want to do for Eureka Springs.

Apparently you do but you are sworn to secrecy.

I do know you have been damning the mayor for advertising reasons for some time but not for tax reasons for which he has been neither lawfully prosecuted nor tried.

As for twisting, you could outdo Chubby Checker anytime, anywhere.

08-02-2002, 07:52 AM
I’m going to try to unravel the Kaye / Royal wars here. Let’s see how right or wrong I can be. At the very least maybe I can clear this board for other posters :)

Kaye – I had trouble unwinding the double standard comment too. If anyone from the CDP committee were mayor and pulled the same maneuvers I believe they’d be held to the same standards from this group. What I do wonder is, would the same two men who blew this last whistle on Satori be so vigilant with a CDP mayor?

I’m finding as many oldtimers complaining here as newcomers.

Royal – you know damned well what you “think” the CDP steering committee has to do with the mayor – the problem is you don’t “know” and neither do we, but you “think” Kaye does but won’t “tell”.

Kaye – Do you?? Aw, come on – tell - or start twistin away darlin. Or we may insist you change your login to “Tokyo Rose” :)

08-02-2002, 08:56 AM

It is good to see that you are still out there...a mind is a terrible thing to waste!


Kaye Miller
08-02-2002, 09:17 AM
I have missed the entire reason for Royal to post the CDP steering com. on this thread. Many of the people on this com. are people Royal has continually critized each time they do something (and I underscore the words do something). They are out there doing while most of us are on this board complaining. This was just another excuse to continue his ranting.

I'm an old 12 stepper (been trying to get Royal to try it). One of the hardest things in the program is - YOU HAVE TO SEPARATE THE PERSONALITIES FROM THE PRINCIPLES.

Royal has said I have been ridiculing the mayor. I have. If the mayors name had been James DeVito or Jack Moyer and the actions had been the same I would have been ridiculing them also.

If you go through the archives and read the posts you will find it appears Royal enjoys running down those who are actually trying to do something good (CDP as an example)and yet sits quietly by while the mayor thumbs his nose at the law. Now for someone with Royal's intellect to sit by and say nothing makes it appear to me as he is approving of all this.

I have been here for 10 years. Six of the people on the comm. I would know if they walked into a room. At least 6 others I would recognize by name because Royal has torn into them on this board. Several of them we all know to be on his personal "I don't like you nanny, nanny, boo, boo"list.
I have no idea what the CDP comm. has to do with the mayor, but any one of them would be a giant step up when it comes to running the city. Perhaps they can steer Eureka Springs back on track!!

Yes, I believe these men would have blown the whistle on a "CDP" mayor had the "CDP" mayor pulled the same cr** this one has. It's been very difficlut to watch. Remember the only way they finally got Al Capone was on tax evasion.

And, I'll bet 50 to 70% of the prime property in Branson is held by a few interest.

Support this mayor- even if he is in the wrong???? Not in my lifetime!!!!!

08-02-2002, 01:06 PM

08-02-2002, 09:15 PM
What I find hard to believe is that the steering com. that is being talked about,and praised is doing their own steering and nobody seems to get it. It is so simple.
We have a city council. We elected. We have a Master Plan approved We have HDC, Planing , Zoning appointed by the Council we Elected. This is the steering comm. They work for and through us. We are the town.
How does the Main street thing the CDP is doing fit in to the master plan of the city?
NOT. Low income housing? Is it zoned for that NOT What if 90% of us don't want it. Think they care NOT. Why do you think almost NON of OUR elected and appointed officals were involved, by chance NOT. The mayor is one issue the CDP one issue they don't tie together and one dosen't rustify the other.
If what is said about the Mayor is true he is a fool. If what I see the CDP doing goes any futher kiss for the PEOPLE goodby
There is no chocolet here butt plenty of KY jelly.

Steve Beacham
08-03-2002, 09:07 AM
Kaye, I understand what you mean by double standard. During the so called voting fraud case in ES several years ago, the current Mayor was one of the leaders to have charges brought against the illegal voters. He even showed me this elaborate chart he had drawn up showing connections between the illegal voters and certain big power brokers here in town.

The point I am making is not whether the voting was illegal or not, but the person that chose to make it a public issue.

Royal should also remember this time in ES history and who the players were.

Becky Davis
08-03-2002, 09:24 AM
Steve, Have you ever thought about running for Mayor? I think you would make a good one.

Kaye Miller
08-03-2002, 09:33 AM
Thank you Steve. I was beginning to think I was the only one seeing this.

Another example would be the trees cut to put in THE Sidewalk. Those doing all of the squawking whenever someone cut down a tree have certainly remained quiet about the number of trees cut for THE Sidewalk. I certainly expected someone to be chained to those trees for all the commotion and uproar to protect "antique" trees. No one came, not sir, not one whisper. Why??? It was their "good ole boy".

Again, double standard.

As for the artist plying their trade. I personally think it is great to have artist in the park and at various places in town IF they by a permit and collect all taxes the rest of us are expected to collect and turn in. Let's not have double standards here too.

Dwight Ott
08-03-2002, 10:29 AM
Ms Miller,
Permits are no longer required, - act of city council. There are different ways to contribute to the community other than paying taxes...no double standard, just a different level than the mainstream, - some call it economic diversity.

I don't think there are many artists who can afford to contribute their time, talents, and efforts to Eureka Springs as it is, so you don't need to worry about competition from "freeloaders"*.

*(term used for artists and musicians during a previous forum discussion.)

[This message has been edited by Dwight Ott (edited 08-03-2002).]

08-03-2002, 10:40 AM
Yep, much better to have no one in the park than to risk the evil competition or someone seeing a teenager with blue hair or some other atrocity. Ghost towns must have their own attraction for someone.

08-03-2002, 11:00 AM
Most of us forget who really calls the shots in Eureka Springs-the people who used to come here before it turned into an over-priced, over-hyped tourist trap. They have voted with their feet and their dollars. Take a day off from rehashing ancient history and tend to your little corner of the world and try to make it better. Eureka Springs will always be what it is, a somewhat charming backwater resort for people who can't afford to go anywhere really interesting.

Becky Davis
08-03-2002, 11:31 AM
Sorry that I have to agree with Heretic about Eureka becoming over hyped tourist trap. Too bad that is the truth and sad that is how it has become known. It only took a few years of gouging before they stopped returning. Word of mouth is pretty powerful.
And I know folks probably don't want to hear about other towns. But I went thru downtown and counted eighteen tour busses parked across from the Velda Rose and Majestic.
Why not find a successful town and follow their plan?

[This message has been edited by Becky Davis (edited 08-03-2002).]

Kaye Miller
08-03-2002, 11:49 AM
Mr. Ott-
Let's keep this on the high road. I am only stating my side of the story. You are the person using the term freeloader.

You say the artist cannot afford to contribute their time, talents or efforts into Eureka as it is now. Because we were not given the talent to paint or play an instrument, does that make US 2nd class??? Believe you me we have had to develop a lot of "talent" the past few years just to keep the doors open. Does that make the business people part of the diversity?? Somehow when people use that term I don't feel we are included.

As to the different ways of contributing to a community; if you are being paid money for your contribution (be it in a hat, instrument box, or cash register as we are) you should be subject to the same taxes I am. Notice I did not say if you are making a living off your contributions...none of us are making a living.

Every time I hear the term "over priced" in regards to Eureka, I have to laugh. We have yet to travel anywhere and get a motel room for the low prices here. Sure, some B&B's and hotels may be higher. That's diversity. There are enough shops that merchandise has to be competitive. Today's consumer will drive 20 miles to save $5.00. That's fact.

MM12 - I am not against blue hair, tatoos, or body piercing. I will not, however, hire anyone who's face jingles from all the rings or tolerate a bear-whiz t-shirt on someone working with us. That is my privilege as it is theirs. Doesn't mean I don't like them. Just different strokes for different folks.

I have to sign off for a couple of days now, so Royal, please keep the home fires burnin' http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Kaye Miller (edited 08-03-2002).]

08-03-2002, 11:59 AM
Just a reminder of an earlier post while we all are standing together so nicely.

“What your right wing there knows is the left wing never really stands together. The right will stand together even when they know their guy is wrong, for the greater good of the cause.”

“all I can say what a bunch of sell outs as a generation. That was part of the whole movement of the 60's- early 70's seek change at all cost rebel from the system. They are basically playing a divide and concur game with you all. They know that the base is divided and power is not far from the taking, maybe they’re striving for excellence, i think not. Maybe its about caring for the community, once again I think not. What your local good old boys know that some of you don't is that Eureka is becoming a very desired community, not so much for tourism but what its going to become or what they wish to sell it for.”

[This message has been edited by soulself (edited 08-06-2002).]

08-03-2002, 12:28 PM
I am sure you all have seen the interviews with the Coal Minors in Pennsylvania? How all 9 of them survived after being trapped in the water for 72 hours with one corn beef sandwich and some Mt. Dew. By tying themselves together!!!
I would hate to think what would happen to any of us, if you had to depend on each other.
God, this just makes me sick. We would probably use that rope to hang each other.

Dwight Ott
08-03-2002, 12:41 PM
High road...high horse...well, it's hot outside and I, like everyone else and his/her grandmother's/grandfather's dog, have an opinion. I have found that it is the obligatory American way that every opinion calls for the reaction of, at least, equal and opposite opinion.

Economic diversification...what this country was built on until the monopolization and homogenization of business practices, accompanied by legislation and chamber music, made it a crime to "not belong" to the mainstream. No, I am not a fan of the local, state, federal, or universal tax system that has evolved under Darwinian Capitalism. I am not a true believer.

Unity? Comm-unity? One of the things about Eureka that I still consider a positve is DIVERSITY...not only cultural, sexual, religious, political, but even ECONOMIC DIVERSITY(which is really hard to find anymore.) Standardization, to me, is not a pretty thing when compared to the magnificent diversity that is constantly being strangled out by those who use the once-meaningful, but now empty slogans about unity, democracy, constitutional rights, etc.

Unity does not mean uniformity.


[This message has been edited by Dwight Ott (edited 08-03-2002).]

08-03-2002, 01:25 PM
Well’ while you and Mr. Alcott worry about the high horse and decide what kind of hang-mans noose is appropriate and whether corn beef is traditionally served on whole wheat or rye. I will be on the look out for people who want to bring this city up. Instead of watching it drown. I’m back in the saddle again. Out where a friend is a friend. You know the words? Sing along. I sure like the view I see up on this high road

08-03-2002, 01:36 PM
Country music???????
Let's turn Eureka into a Rock n' Roll retreat!!! The Stones, Pink Floyd, Bob Seger. Maybe Ozzie could move here and do his show? How's that for an idea for us baby boomers?
Hey Hey, rock and roll will never die...Neil Young

Dwight Ott
08-03-2002, 01:39 PM
Howdy, Pardner,
Ain't lookin' fer no hangman's noose.(non-violent). Don't eat no corn beef (vegetarian).

See ya round the bend...(visionary)
Adios, Amigo

{Woopee ki yi yo, gitalong little doh-gi,
Hit's yore mis-fortune, an' nunna my own...

Fritter away the moments that make up a dull day...
I have become comfortably numb... on the Dark Side of the Moon...
I cain't get no satisfaction...}

[This message has been edited by Dwight Ott (edited 08-03-2002).]

08-03-2002, 01:43 PM
My point is most of the tourists have left, most of the artists have left, the kids have left and now the business people can just sell to each other. Used to be one $20 bill that made the rounds in Eureka in winter. Getting to be that same $20 all year. Living in the country is great. We love living out here on "the hill."

08-03-2002, 02:02 PM
soulself, you confuse me. I don't understand what you are looking for. These comments are a reflection of our collective time spent in and around Eureka Springs. These are our experiences. These are our opinions.

We all.. as newcomers and ole timers have sought "higher ground" for ourselves, and the town. All of us have, in one way or another, worked towards a better Eureka. We have different ideas about what that is, for sure. For some, it's a town that offers citizens some benefits, such as higher paying teacher salaries, a community center, sewer service.. for others, it's a way to make more money, better living through tourism. I know, it's our only business.. and we are all affected, but not everyone is looking to break the bank, just pay the bills, and raise their kids to be contributing members of society.
We are not immune to the ills of the world. Seems that many people here don't think that Sept. 11 should have any monetary effect on us.. but it has. It has struck the whole tourism/extra cash business. I have friends that are going under, after 20-30 years in their craft. It's not just Beau, it's not just the CAPC, it is the way things are now.
As long as anyone is on a "high horse", others are trampled underfoot. We are in this together, in town, out of town, artist, business owner. We all stand to lose our special place in this world, if we don't stop fighting with each other, if we don't vote in an honest, sincere and strong person for mayor.

Who among you is willing to give what it takes? Who among you will answer the call?

A leader is best
When people barely know he exists,
When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,
They will say:
We did it ourselves.--Lao-Tzu

[This message has been edited by PMilam (edited 08-03-2002).]

08-03-2002, 11:22 PM
Boy, You guys wouldn’t recognized a tongue in cheek if it were in your azz..
Sorry Lucinda I couldn’t resist. I can’t be sweet all the time. I’m in the middle of a hissy fight.
PMilam and Sweetness & Light, am I speaking a different language?
I have been preaching everything you have stated above PMilam. The entire point of my post (which for some reason strikes a nerve with some of you) is togetherness, and you turn on me with this fetid hissss.. Some of you scare me. Don’t you see what we are doing to each other? I’m sorry if you have misinterpreted the meaning of my posts.
I am on your side. I am on the side of the loving spirit in Eureka. The spirit that I’m afraid is drifting away, if we do not work together to keep it.

I ’m on your side. Everyone who feels the love in Eureka knows what I’m talking about.

Your post hurt me PMilam, but only because I know you are one of the loving spirits. I thought you understood what I’ve been trying to say.
We are supposed to be taking care of each
other aren’t we? That’s what I loved about Eureka,, The healing spirit. The love that is drowning now, all because of our hate.
We are going to have to stop this now. Don’t you think so Mr Alcott?
Why are we here? I know it’s not to make money. (Place tong in cheek here.)

I guess you’ve knocked me off my high horse, I was hoping to give you all a lift. I would never trample on anyone. But I do realize of course, none of you know me.

II hope you will all learn to live together. Like in those pretty songs they use to sing. You know… Come on people now, smile on your brother every body get together try to love one another right now, right now…..

I hope your kids have more hope for the future than you do.
I'll not post again,
Good night.

[This message has been edited by soulself (edited 08-04-2002).]

08-03-2002, 11:56 PM
"Well’ while you and Mr. Alcott worry about the high horse and decide what kind of hang-mans noose is appropriate and whether corn beef is traditionally served on whole wheat or rye. I will be on the look out for people who want to bring this city up. Instead of watching it drown. I’m back in the saddle again. Out where a friend is a friend. You know the words? Sing along. I sure like the view I see up on this high road"

This is the post that confuses me... sorry, if that was meant as tongue in cheek.. I missed it. It sounded... to me... that you were dismissing Dwight and Royals comments.. as trivial.. like a sandwich.. I don't know, it's late..

What did I say that gives you the impression that my idea of the future is bleak?

I certainly had no intention of hurting your feelings, I just really don't understand
what you are saying.. in that particular post.

Hmmm, I'm going to have to sleep on this one.

08-04-2002, 07:20 AM
Never thought I'd sound like "one of them," but I do believe they've finally worn me down.

Years ago, I had the same feelings of 'let's all come together and put on a show to get us all together for (fill in the blank for the appropriate time in question)' and other notions of how to jazz up the economy by playing up the Victorian aspect of a (gee-whiz!) Victorian town for the tourists' amusement and our own benefit and all I got was 'it's too hot to wear costumes, etc, etc.,' and forty eleven reasons why it would never work. I persisted in trying to figure a way to get the two factions together; an old time fall festival for locals with a local band on a hay-filled wagon, booths selling local's wares, apple bobbing and old time fun...deaf ears.

But being a stubborn (stupid?) pig, I perservered and kept on each time these subjects floated to the top of the topic pool. It's been a few years and we're still on the same old merry go round with no brass ring. The ride is endless and goes nowhere but a circle.

Patt's latest quote is right smack dab on the mark: "A leader is best when people barely know he exists. When his work is done, his aim fulfilled. They will say: we did it ourselves." We have yet to find that someone and I have wandered closer to the camp of "we tried that once seventy years ago and it didn't work then." At least when a salmon swims upstream, it gets to spawn, but then again.....?

Kim Yonkee
08-04-2002, 07:55 AM
A number of random observations, all under the heading of "If somebody died and made me the Boss," http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif

I think it would be fabulous if un-taxed, un-permitted artists and musicians were thick as mosquitos in the park. If they're willing to do it ... bless them! Wonderful! How can we emulate the old-style patron system to help them? Let artists work out their own taxes with God & the IRS and let us not limit them by holding them to the same standards as the SELLERS of stuff made by other people. No, Kaye, I don't think this makes you (or anyone else) a second class citizen. But I do agree with Dwight that there are different types of contribution.

People like variety; they like to see a lot of stuff happening. Same principle, really, as why you don't have a single top-lit ornament on a table in your store. You have every square inch packed with glittering treasures ... people peek in and say, "Oooh...let's go dig around in there!" because it looks like a lot of stuff, a lot of variety. You intrige them, you make them want to root around. You create an environment that helps you get what you want, i.e. sales.

Artists creating and performing with wild abandon create an environment that's beautiful and fun ... and actually very useful to everybody else. Artists create the variety, the energy, the good mood ... and that makes for happy, frivolous people who spend money with wild abandon. I think this *IS* their contribution to the betterment of business and that it is enough. If you wanted to create a festive mood by, say, juggling Christmas ornaments outside your store ... cool! I wouldn't advocate the idea of you needing a permit either.

A couple of years ago, the entire PIM staff was in Vermont and we were all very impressed by Burlington, which was a place that had a whole lot of fixed-location stores, AND a whole lot of street-sellers. Since we're from Eureka, we ran around interrogating all the storefront people about what they thought about this. All of them, 100% said, "When we first started this,we were worried that it would take away from our business. But it has really helped everybody. There are people on the street selling the same stuff I'm selling, but there are more shoppers now ... they like the festive atmosphere ... so I'm making more money than I used to, even though it would seem like I've got a competitor right outside the door."

This whole idea makes a lot of sense to me because isn't going on vacation all about having fun? Moral of the story, part two, is that we can be very limited by fear and cynicism and the misguided belief that "If you have something then there isn't enough of it for me," which brings me to ....

Over priced tourist traps. Hmmmm. I've spent the last month schlepping out of town visitors around and they're universally thrilled with our little backwater resort. None of them had never been here before, but they come back, they tell two friends ... who tell two friends. Or, in the case of these actual people, they tell a thousand friends who tell a thousand friends. But even one by one, word of mouth is very powerful in a positive way too.

The whole "backwater" componenent of Eureka is part of the desirability. We're something new to see and, to most people, very affordable. If you go out and act like a tourist around here, you discover that it is actually very difficult to do all the interesting things there are to do in 3 or 4 days.

If the same ol' people we've been inviting for 30 years have wandered elsewhere, should we really be surprised? Have you talked to the group of businesses who have banded together to specifically go after group business? They're getting great results. Those who look at Eureka like some people look in a mirror, "Ah, I am so fat and ugly! Who would ever love me?" Well... they may agree with you. But if you actually get out among 'em and talk to the people who are excited about this town and expressing their excitement to others, you get a very different story.

Like this thread, I've wandered from the original topic, which seems to be about preservation vs. progress. Mayor being the representative of preservation, CDP being the representatives of progress, and ne'er the twain shall meet. Do I understand the point correctly?

Frankly, I'm engaging in this rambling diatribe for two reasons: 1). because it went into an area that I have big ol' opinions about and 2). because I really should be out in the 1000 degree heat pulling weeds out of the veggie garden and I'm procrastinating.

But the end of the diatribe is this: I think we DO have unity in community already. Maybe it's not in a way we would prefer it, as in "We all speak with a common voice and stand in harness to dig a mutually agreed upon crop." We're more like a large and complicated family and, most of the time, we gripe about how Uncle Ernie tells the same tired jokes and how Cousin Freddie got another facial piercing and isn't that an embarassment to the family name? But when the chips are down, or the time for the Thanksgiving feast arrives, we pretty much manage to hang together.

Maybe that's as good as it gets. Maybe this is the perfect way for us to be. If we didn't have all the stir we do, we might get pretty lazy and there wouldn't be any passion about either progress or preservation.

Blah, blah, blah. Enough? OK. I'll go dig weeds now. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/smile.gif

08-04-2002, 08:05 AM
Hurray, as usual Kim said it perfectly. She took what lots of us were mumbling and stumbling about and quite succintly summed it up. That is why she is the one to blame and the one to follow, goddess bless her little heart.

Dwight Ott
08-04-2002, 08:31 AM
Right on the mark. Thanks, Kim.

If the business community of Eureka were to adopt this attitude, I have no doubt that there would be a revitalization like none seen before...there would not be just a Renaissance Fair, there would be an actual renaissance. Art, music, freedom and creativity, could turn things around for everyone.

For the 2 years that Ken Cook and I both did portraits in the park, we did not compete against one another but we offered tourists a choice. We worked together, and each of us profited from the other's presence.

[This message has been edited by Dwight Ott (edited 08-04-2002).]

Dani Joy
08-04-2002, 08:41 AM

You are exactly right. Long ago and far far away when Eureka was booming (1989) 2 very wise men came down to my restaurant and helped me set everything up. They gave me phone numbers to vendors and told me the in's and out's of owning a restaurant. I was in shock. Especially since both men owned restaurants just above mine. That was Jack Muzio and James DeVito. Coming fresh from Texas I still had the mentality that no one shared and I had to fight to protect what was mine. Then James told me something very prophetic: "If Eureka only has one restaurant then why would anyone come here? The more we have - the more will come."

I've remembered that act of kindness all those years. And I learned a very good lesson too. They were both right. People don't come for just one shop, or one restaurant. They come because there is a lot to do and see. They want to get their money's worth and in the customer's eye that means bigger and more is better. Since I have been running Cinnamon Valley Resort I have seen a wonderful sharing relationship between B&B and cabin owners. They all cover each other and recommend other places to stay if they are full.

I think the trick is to see the whole picture and look at Eureka from the tourist view point. This isn't a war between ourselves. It's a war to keep Eureka alive and open.

Just my opinion - - for what that's worth

(I still think we should have a Rennaisance fair in the streets. Mothermoon - you would be great at this one)

08-04-2002, 10:57 AM
I could use a little more clarification as to where this concept is going.

Is it being suggested that street artists be exempted from the CAPC tax only, or ALL tax’s, permits and occupational licenses ?

Also is it being suggested that any and all forms of the arts will be given carte blanch to set up and create anywhere, any time, anyhow?

Is there to be some regulating, or absolutely none? If some regulations are to be enforced, what would be agreeable?

I do have input on this matter , however, I want to be sure I am addressing the correct issue.

08-04-2002, 11:14 AM
Since we've been reminiscing about the good old days (nobody seems to know they're actually in the good old days until well after they're over and our memories regild the past) and wouldn't it be grand if we could all just get along together...taking a breath to continue on a sentence. We've been quoting a few old songs...I've been thinking of the Beach Boys' "Wouldn't It Be Nice?" and realized what we have here in Eureka is nothing new.

That song is about 35 or more years old and they were asking for people to join together even then. As I recall, it didn't happen. Maybe it's that other old song, "Elusive Butterfly." Apparently, this is an age old problem when the subjects are not under a ruling government's thumb. Bad? Good? It's part of what makes Eureka Eureka. A little redundancy never hurt anyone.

This is just an observation, but it is related to tourism. I was absently watching the History channel, I think, and it was devoted to how the very first vacations came about which got people to traveling in their tin Lizzies to the great outdoors. This was great...had photos, old grainy video, etc. These people packed up the family in these rickety old cars and went camping. They ate out of tin cans along side of the road and were called Tin Can Campers...I think that's it. Royal, correct me.

By 1929, over 9 million autos were registered in the U.S., even though we had entered the Great Depression....never could figure out what was so darned great about being depressed. Anyway, even way back then, people would not give up the freedom of their cars. There were so many people vacationing across the nation by car and just stopping wherever, that they pissed off the first business owner.

A carload would be driving in Iowa through miles and miles of cornfields, say to each other that there's so very much corn and only 4 of them who would eat maybe 2 ears each....and then promptly pulled off the side of the road and did just that. Naturally, they were not the one and only car that did that. Another farmer went into his barn to find uninvited tourists milking his cows and not for the sheer joy of getting back to the farm or to help the farmer. Oh, no...it was for their own use and not to offer to pay, either.

So, we who complain about how great it was in the old days....and that would be me....thankfully have historians who document that it was NOT so great back then. We still had the same problems of getting people to respect others and their property and not think everything growing in someone else's town should be theirs for free. In case you're wondering about that last remark, picking wildflowers by the side of the road, or picking domestic flowers in our downtown parks or grabbing a tomato off a carefully tended vine. I mean, REALLY...how would they like someone to harvest THEIR illegal weed production in their home town? http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/tongue.gif

My other thought is along Kim's idea of having artists in the park and also, musicians. Isn't this one of the first things you hear from someone lucky enough to have been able to visit New Orleans or Paris, France? They have something other people's home towns don't offer: artists painting and music on the street that makes the town seem that much more inviting and interesting than their own. Otherwise, they'd probably just stay home, but when you know you're going to see someone actually creating art right in front of your very eyes.... You can buy prints off the internet or a catalogue. Seeing it created in person is way better than watching them on Home&Garden TV. It also puts those visitors in the mood to get gutsy and buy a sample of what we should have to offer. It would also encourage me to take the trolley to the park and shop.

Eureka is what it is and maybe we are expecting perfection according to just one view, which of course would be just yours or just mine, instead of a collage.

Dwight Ott
08-04-2002, 11:38 AM
It is not just a matter of regulation, or degrees of governemental control...it is an attitude toward participation...a matter of exclusivity as opposed to inclusion.

The present attitude is like a closed box, with more and more "control" ordinances and exclusion, standardization, and limitation of creativity stuffed in the box. The attitude I believe Kim expressed is one of opening the box...and maybe even operating outside of it.

Artists pay taxes...but as Kim stated so well, there is a difference between the products of creative expression (often given First Amendment protection) and the selling of merchandise (this has been affirmed many times in courts). More important for Eureka Springs is that art at all levels could be fostered as a vital component of the economy and the entire community, rather than discouraged and ordinanced in ways that make it unwelcome and often impossible.

This attitude is not just toward art and music, it is also the one that is not working well for business, for citizen/residents, for young people, for tourists, for positive functioning of the entire Eureka Springs world.

In other words, a change in attitude is needed much more than more regulation.

08-04-2002, 12:21 PM
And the background singers sang out A-A-AMEN!

08-04-2002, 12:56 PM

I agree whole heartedly that Eureka Springs Would benefit as a whole with the presence of street artists of many kinds. Your presence downtown is sorely missed. Where I start to get concerned is when we create a class of elite that are special privileged from the rest of the community.

I guess these feelings began for me during Vietnam, when there where special classes of the elite whose family members seemed to be exempted from the harsh reality that was forced upon the have nots. It was further reinforced, from watching big business skate through loopholes and get away with not paying their share of tax’s that are imposed once again on the have nots.

So I guess what I am trying to say is I have always felt a need for a level playing field. What applies to one should apply to all. Equal rights, equal opportunities, equal share in the responsibilities. So here I am a strong proponent of equality stuck with the conundrum that no two things can be crammed into the same box. Without flexibility things are destined to snap. How does one achieve true equality while knowing full well that no two people are the same?

This is the ever present paradox that our local government is in. government is a group of people that have been entrusted by the people to regulate those things which may well benefit the majority. On one extreme they pass laws that extend grave consequences to someone that murders someone else, in an effort to prevent people from murdering each other. On what appears to be the opposite end, they pass ordinances that deal with nuisance situations to try and make life more bearable and comfortable for those in the community, such as leash laws and noise ordinances, as well as regulations to protect trees, and neighborhoods from nonresidential activity.

I hate to assume anything, but from the posts you have written in the past, it seems to me that there are rules that our government enforces that you do agree with. So given that, lets just say that the government on some levels has its place. Most of us just disagree on the extent of the intrusion and where to draw the line.

So in my mind, It all comes down to where the lines are drawn. Here I am back to my basic premise of resisting any class of elite, ( special privileged). Add to this, I also feel Art is totally subjective. Art is a frame of mind. Any person can apply their approach to their trade as a form of art, as a creative expression. This concept encompasses all possible forms of creation, as well as observation in the realm of the world of art.

How do we decide what forms of expression are to be exempt from permits, and tax’s? Certainly there are chefs as well as wait people that are truly artists in their own tasks, shall we say that Chez Charles is truly an artist, therefore he need not pay tax’s, But we all know there is no aesthetic value in a happy meal so Mickey D’s will have to pay the tax? I guess we could just limit the privileged status to those selling their wares on the street. So know we have those with the lowest overhead, selling for retail prices without having to contribute to the infrastructure that they are being allowed to make use of. We will leave that responsibility to those that have chosen to invest their life's blood on a gamble, in the LONG TERM health of the community.

PLEASE don’t get me wrong. I DO support having street artists in Eureka Springs. I just feel that everyone of us has some degree of cost of doing business. When these same artists set up at a Ren festival, they pay a space fee as well as a percentage on top of the tax’s they are obliged to. War Eagle is set up the same way, and they have a waiting list to get in. To be able to retail without the overhead of a permanent space to maintain, having the latitude to pick and choose what days would be profitable to set up, Is already a winning situation. But I feel to then ask to be exempted from having to contribute to tax the base that everybody else is liable to, then to me, it feels like another elite class that further separates us from each other.

I do feel we could steam line the process however. Perhaps a kiosk in the downtown area where permits would be readily available, with perhaps a cap on how many a day to prevent too many musicians in too small an area at any given time. We probably wouldn’t want too many chainsaw artists running gas chainsaws all day downtown. And what do we do about the individual that wish’s to express their creativity by molding their own excrement into likenesses of their favorite president. You may be in the main stream of Art, but many are not. ANYTHING can be called art, how do we prevent the Harley rider from revving his engine in Basin park for 2 hours non stop, while calling it music, without some degree of regulation?

08-04-2002, 01:22 PM
I'll admit right up front that I'm out of my league as far as having any actual knowledge of how the law works on this subject, and I have no concrete ideas about how to implement a process such as you describe U.D.Cide.

I do remember, however, a very long time before I found the wherewithal to sign up and post here, a discussion of an opinion handed down by the U.S. Supreme Court regarding street artists. This discussion went on for quite some time, months perhaps, and Dwight would probably remember the specifics of it all much better than I.

As I recall, there was a case that wound its way all the way to the Supreme Court regarding the rights of street artists as opposed to the rights of cities to try to regulate street artists. In the end, the street artists won out, and Eureka Springs, for instance, was bound to have to change the way street artists were treated as a result.

As I recall, in the past, the city passed out a limited number of permits to people for street performance each year, and that number was pitifully low, and certain people always had a lock on those few permits. That decision by the Supreme Court made it impossible for Eureka Springs to do what she had been doing as it regards street performance of any kind. The city was also supposed to drop any kind of regulation of street artists which, if I am correct, has not entirely happened as of yet.

Dwight, can you help me out here? I am not an artist or musician, but I am fully in support of the creative community that works as street artists, musicians, performers, etc., and I cannot remember how that decision actually came down to affect performers and local municipalities. If you could spell it out better, I would appreciate it very much. Thanks.


Dwight Ott
08-04-2002, 01:42 PM
I do not recall any artist requesting exemption from taxation. I also do not know of any artist who is regularly working as a street artist. As far as I know, there is no structure in place for street artists or musicians to collect CAPC taxes, but of course all income is taxable on the state and federal levels.

As to the debate as to what is "expression" and is protected "speech" the courts at the highest levels have struggled with this and have more or less defined it, but the average person does not know this until in court, when another "elitism" is revealed.

What is art? You are right, -- it is big. And I would certainly agree that it is more than just visual artists and musicians, but that is what we are dealing with here.

Your other points seem to go to unlikely exaggerations... Street artists as elites!!!!
"molding excrement!!! --hmmm...a possibility...I bet tourists would love it!!! "

CPD, yes, NYC street artists got Supreme Court affirmation that they were protected by the First Amendment and that government cannot license or permit their selling art in public spaces. Of course government can regulate activity that impedes traffic, threatens health and safety, or disturbs the peace...so they can make rules that regulate when and how artists can work. This same ruling said that government cannot directly impose a tax on this creative expression. It was a shock to NYC's attempt to standardize business control in the city and was a sweeping affirmation of First Amendment protection for this form of "speech".

We are probably having this conversation with no relevance since I no longer do street art and do not think there will come along any who could afford to do it. It really is no threat to the tax system or business interests in Eureka!

U.D. Since re-thinking your post, I have been seized by an uncontrollable inner laughter because it is such a caricature of the ubiquitous argument that rises up from fear that someone may have some slight bit of advantage, some wee amount of leverage in the playing field, especially the young, or artists, or in most case, the least likely to have advantage. This is from fear, no doubt. If we make artists welcome, they will overwhelm us with nudes and excrement! If we give them an inch, they'll take a mile. We must CONTROL or they will become elitists!!!!
Ha, ha, ha, ha!!! (excuse me.)

[This message has been edited by Dwight Ott (edited 08-04-2002).]

08-04-2002, 05:50 PM

I am glad I brought some laughter into your life. Lord knows that is all too rare a commodity these days.

Although you may not see it, I believe we both have a common desire. That is to see the community flourishing with artists and other performers welcome to ply their talents in public forums. I believe we just have different opinions on how best to see this happen.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I believe you feel that left unfettered, they will come and thrive if left to their own devices. This is a distinct possibility, and all things equal, and all involved being considerate and rational minded.

Unfortunately I have become ( obviously )jaded to a certain extent, and tend to hope for the best, but plan for the worst. I believe in order to encourage this to happen we need to initiate a vehicle, which would encourage a certain number, in certain areas on any given day.

It is very likely as is the case right now, that there will be no conflicts for space and time. But as this venue becomes widely renown, which is sure to happen as you stated in an earlier post, we will need the ability to fairly, allow all interested to be involved, without infringing on the use of the same space by the residents and visitors.

Dwight Ott
08-04-2002, 08:11 PM
Thanks, U.D.Cide,
Yes, I think you are right that we both want to see good things come to Eureka, and we both recognize that there are those who may abuse her...BUT they are NOW, -those who are so retentive they can not see beyond their imagined turf and shut out anything they fear they may not be able to control...

A few years ago I watched the street musicians work out their own scheduling and saw that they could share and care about each other in a common effort. They did this on their own with no outside interference. Most of them have gone now...a real loss to Eureka Springs. BUT, even artists are reasonable people, if given a chance.

just wondering
08-04-2002, 09:03 PM
Dwight and u D cide. The street artist works under Chance, the chance of someone buying what they offer, when and if they are there. On the other hand the artists,restauranteers, and galleries have eliminated chance by offering their goods and services in a box (read building), and hanging out a shingle offering their wares. Their presense is constant. Well you see what I mean. There is however a symbiotic relationship betwee the two groups which works to the benefit of both.

Another observation some in this community are guilty of Hubris and others consider themselves the cream of the crop. Well Hubris has led to the downfall of many. And according to my taciturn Yankee Farmer uncle" CREAM RISES TIL IT SOURS!

[This message has been edited by just wondering (edited 08-04-2002).]

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Kim Yonkee
08-04-2002, 11:18 PM
Well thank you for the kind words. Mother Moon, you know I am always invested in keeping that Blame ME! designation ... something that probably ought to be on a t-shirt. With a logo. Which means I need ... what? An artist! http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I'm intrigued by the idea you present, U.D.Cide ... the idea of creating a protected class with special privileges. I hadn't really thought about it in that way, about what viewpoint people would have that would make them resist the idea of what I actually do advocate, which is a high level of artistic anarchy. But ...

What this brings to mind, for me, is all jobs that are done by people who sell their brains. We are used to the idea of paying lawyers and CPA's and physicians for what they know. They talk, we give them money. We may never actually get a tangible product, but we still have an expectation that we owe these people something for their time whether we walk out the door with a brief, a tax return, a prescription... or not.

Why is it, I wonder, that we think that we don't owe artists and musicians anything for what they do with THEIR brains? Somehow, it's a reasonable thing to us [as a species] to reward certain mindsets and consider it adequate to merely permit others to exist. Yes, you go to school and work hard for years to acquire the skill to become a physician ... but one doesn't exactly roll out of bed one day and say, "Gee, that Sistene Chapel ceiling could really use a coat of paint."

The question of "how to create a level playing field" seems very complicated when we're talking about playing soccer with a baseball bat. I don't mean to be chiding here ... I always like to pick arguments because I have a great fondness for unresolvable philosophical discussions and I have to do it all on Geekfest because the people in my 3D world find this trait of mine to be very annoying. But, that said ...

How do you apply the rules of one world to the reality of another? If you say artists should be required to get permits and organize themselves according to a regular schedule, isn't that the left-brain, orderly, un-artist view? Wouldn't it be equally fair to say, "All CPA's are hereinafter required to dress in diaphonous robes and emit tax pronoucements in archaic French because that would be more interesting and creative?"

What is that Gibran quote about God loving the arrow that goes forth, but also the bow that is stable? [and where is Patt when I need a fortune cookie?]

I can understand the idea of saying that artists would be an elite class if they don't have to pay rent and buy permits ... but only if I accept the idea that the world of permits and leases and acadmic credentials is the only valid world. God help the lawyers if a bunch of artists get to impose their views on how lawyers ought to behave.

OK... give me a good verbal whipping. I love it. I'm beggin for it. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Persona Non Gratis
08-05-2002, 12:06 AM
Well My first post and it looks like it has had some interest, spent the weekend in your fine little community and enjoyed it as always. I find its interesting how everyone has jumped in with an opinion but really not addressed the main issues of my posting. A few have stayed the course but the divide and concour game is played out here as well.
The issue at hand is the great right wing attempted to sway and divide your thoughts, the issues get confused in the false attempt to MISLEAD you all into thinking its not motivated by an interested that wishes to take people out of the way to open the doors for massive explotation of your fine community. Who is going to stand the ground. I can tell you this, a few people ask if I new something. I can tell you to look in Little Rock for Mr Barclay, he is in a position thats putting the pounding on your mayor and he is an inside hatched guy for a motived group. This has been a set plan for sometime, I work in a field that this info has come to me, you have more going on there than some of you think. I keep reading about Royal this and that, I don't know your Royal guy but if he has info on this he should share it as well. Take a look at the player in the tax office he use to be in your fine community years ago and has connections to those look to cause the coup d'eta in your town. My job here is to be a deep throat, hope it helps. I really didn't think I would post again and might from time to time when I can make a point or shed some light.
Remember its a cultural war your in their and its every bit about money and interest.

08-05-2002, 05:09 AM
So again I say, Hey Lefty ya wanna hold hands?
You people crack me up. Just keep fighting and we will all drown, Will there ever be.
unity in this community? I think so. This a great new day to end our history as rivals so we can begin or future with indivisible strength.

Woe))))))!!!! high horsy, another wild ride adventure to the end. Right Lucinda?
Perfect dismount!

08-05-2002, 05:09 AM
If we are to stay divided, Eureka will not stand. Eureka is worth standing up for, I believe.

[This message has been edited by soulself (edited 08-05-2002).]

08-05-2002, 08:49 AM
Is this stunned silence we’re not reading Soulself?

We’re on a countdown, 14 days until filing D-day and I’m waiting to see what spawns from the ranks Persona Non Gratis is referring to. I suspect, as does Royal, that Councilman DeVito is “one of them”. Bless his heart. It doesn’t make James a bad man, just a man with backing. I also fully expect another candidate from the same ranks to announce running in tandem with James as “coverage” – bases loaded – may the best man / woman win. And that person may very well come from Royals committee list. We’ll see.

I believe Persona is speaking of Mr. Dick Barclay - Administrator Office of Intergovernmental Services Department of Finance and Administration. He’s likely the one doing the hammering. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ocpa/map/ar.htm

In an earlier post, Old Guy uncovered the bit about - “Take a look at the player in the tax office he use to be in your fine community years ago and has connections to those look to cause the coup d'eta in your town.” - Haven’t looked for this guy yet.

Point is, or problem is, we don’t really know what their agenda is. IF, the group is centered around the CDP steering committee as Royal suspects, then we can make a few guesses, but WHO is really behind this group and behind THAT group. These coalitions are never one dimensional. Time will tell if 1) this mysterious group gains power and 2) if it has the power with the ability to raise this sweet city to new heights or will simply drag it into some type of utopian, self serving nightmare.

08-05-2002, 09:00 AM
Oh excuse me for being politically correct up there. We do know what it's about. Money and power,lots of jockeying for control, a grassroots movement afoot for a city manager versus mayoral form of government. And unless I've missed something lately, the YUUMA and CDP folks are the only ones splashing around stirring up the soup lately, so they are the lead candidates here. Have I missed any other splashy behaviour around town folks? If so, post away.

[This message has been edited by Lucinda (edited 08-05-2002).]

08-05-2002, 09:19 AM
Lucinda, I know who "THEY" are. Do we know who "WE" are? Eureka, we the people. Do you even know whose side you’re on or whom you are fighting against?
Are you sure you’re not Royal in Drag?

08-05-2002, 09:29 AM
And they would never stand for artists in the park.. there is no control there. It is not only to do with wealth, but control. How much money is enough is not the question, the question is how much control. There are millionares galore that have more money than they could spend in a lifetime, but they keep on.. for control. It's a personality/ego thing. I'm not saying some are not in it for the money, it's just that the ones to really watch out for are the power hungry.

Steve Beacham
08-05-2002, 09:39 AM
Why don't we keep a close eye on "THEM". We can call ourselves the "Nightwatch". When we have a them, we can brand them with a big red "T" on their forehead. Then we will know who all the "Thems" are. Unfortunatly, we will all be branded before it is over.

If you watch ES politics, you will discover that indeed it makes for strange bedfellows. People that would normally be on opposite sides will band together to fight against some other issue.

Why would anyone want to serve ES in a political role if not for power. The power of a big fish in a small pond.

08-05-2002, 10:06 AM
No Soul I don’t know whose side I’m on because, as Steve points out, the left side seems to exist only as the newly branded “Nightwatch”, a loosely knit group that posts here and can’t seem to stick to one subject for long, myself included. I certainly don’t know who I would be fighting against or why. I don’t know what’s on the agenda of the “other side”. That’s the point of my post. I know what issues I am for, and what initiatives I am firmly against. They’re evident in my posts.

And Steve, if what Persona alludes to is valid, Eureka might well outgrow that “small pond” someday soon – perhaps the power brokers want a seat in the front of the bus. Chinatown, the film, was all about LA’s rapid growth and the Mulholland power play surrounding one key element - water and who was to provide it. It was an ugly story with ugly underpinnings. The drama queen in me wonders if tourism is the element here. Or is it land, water or another resource yet recognized? Who knows, somebody does.

I’d look lousy as Royal in drag – I’m not THAT cute and the suspenders wouldn’t work for me :)

08-05-2002, 12:15 PM
I'll bet your just as cute Lucinda. No hard feelings. Okay? I just get worked up.

Kim Yonkee
08-05-2002, 11:04 PM
Well yes, soulself, Lucinda is very cute ... but you know how we feel about Royal's hair. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif

OK, I will try to actually stay on the topic for a minute here. We have Persona Non Grata starting this topic by saying he(?) is a NWA professional with a vacation home in Eureka and an interest in the plight of our mayor.

PNG, you're apparently a complex individual ... someone who complains about decisions made on the basis of "the almighty buck," as though you were not someone who made enough of those almighty bucks to have a second home for weekend-only use. Very unusual remark. I don't think I've ever heard anyone with almighty bucks disparage the very idea of almighty-buckness before. Usually, the people who complain about real estate prices being driven up by commercial interests with vile motives are those who don't own any real estate. Real estate investors usually like increases in property value a lot. But I'll do my best to suspend disbelief here and assume that you're just a very unusual person.

Honestly, I don't think you have a whole lot to worry about. NWA has been named one of the most desirable places in the US for at least 5 years. The first time I remember this designation being announced was when we were doing a web site for the NWA Tourism Association ... it was a major retirement/relocation pitch ... and that was during the O'Harris administration.

Even before that, someone stood in my very living room and gloated over their own role in a plot to drive down ES tourism...which would drive down real estate prices...which would then allow a multi-state investment group to buy up ES at rock bottom prices. A specific motive of that era was bringing in gambling and a specific target of the time was Eureka's historic hotels. Oops! Two out of four got bought by some of the most dedicated preservationists in town. So much for that particular coup d'état.

It’s not that people don’t have plots and schemes and burning desires to control whatever they see. Indeed, there are people who have these goals. But the folks who actually have the POWER to control whatever they see usually set their sights pretty high. I’m having a hard time imagining a bunch of guys in pin-striped suits, tossing and turning in their sweat soaked sheets, night after night … agonizing about what they can do to get their hands on Eureka Springs…waking from tortured nightmares with a gasp, “Yes! That’s it! We just have to eliminate that blasted mayor and our road to total domination will be clear!!!” [insert maniacal laughter here]

There are just too many people who are dedicated to preservation in this town. Their commitment preceded the mayor and his vision … and their commitment will continue long after the upcoming election. Forget the idea of mowing down Kathy Harrison with a bulldozer. Has anybody considered the fact that the designated poster boy for the Right Wing is one of the most staunch preservationists in town? What is the nature of this impending exploitation? Exactly?

If the point is supposed to be about defending Beau … well, that’s a different point.

And no, Lucinda, I wouldn’t accuse Royal of being paranoid and bitter on this topic. I do have a real problem with relating theory to reality. Think about every single thing that ever happens in this town. Can you name one thing that goes on that can’t be compared to the process of herding cats? If I had a whole bunch of money and power and the desire to control something, I would definitely pick an easier target that the irascible citizens of Eureka Springs. Trying to dominate this bunch [us] just doesn’t seem like a very efficient use of resources.

08-05-2002, 11:27 PM
What about me Kim?
Take it easy on me, I’m a newbie

Persona Non Gratis
08-06-2002, 01:29 AM
Well I like someone staying on topic, maybe I am complex, here is an insight , I have been on that other side maybe its just a little of me trying to get right for some of the wrong in tthe past. I have been a registered Republican, a player during the reagan convention in KC in 1980. Trust me I know how the game is played on a major scale. Background in Sociology/Psch with a MBA degree. As for the pin stripe suite crowd trust me there on the move here and i know this for a fact, there buying land just over the line in MO. on tablerock, and they are hoping for casinos on tablerock etc. They no its a longshot here and have been in your fine community latley, I know this for a fact. As for the mayor I don't know him but have been watching this for awhile. He represents more than just mayor, he represents the struggle, not just preservation etc. As I recall this is the first time that the counter culture held power, he represented change, the over throw of that change is a psychological victory for the establishment that works to undermine the very principles many of you moved to eureka for, its as differnt as the Cottage Inn and Pancakes. Trust me I have been on the other side, I know a dummy and a sucker game when i see it. I am a bit of a trader to my class interest, but so was FDR. I live in NWA now and I see Eureka for the cultural geosink it is, I see the real game because I know it from the inside out. Trust me these guys are not Joesph Goebells, but the same principles of confusion, and deniable plausiblity apply to the end goal of the control. The mayors take down is the symbol refered to, in the overall plan, I don't care who was mayor the same thing would be being played out. This guy is made himself an easy target granted, but he admitted that, the cause was greater than the individual, thus the sign refered too.
These people are weaved together economically , culturally and geopolitically in a combined effort, it runs deeper than the mayor, he was the symbol for the cause of change, and they never thought he could win, but you people in Eureka banned together an beat them and that put fear in these folks so they are working to make sure this doesn't happen again. If your mayor doesn't run again, don't hand these people power without real thought of what your change represented. You are in a cultural war, of different class interest as well as diobolic political and economic issues that will soon affect the scope of ensuing power changes. The choose is yours, think about it and what the symbol as the sign refers to, as being the mayor really means. Remember The republicans dontated to the Nader camp to divide and concur the democrates. They know that to alinate enough of your vote will cause the desired effect and then goal achived. The mayor is a symbol of what you stood for on election day, then, its up to you to know where to stand now don't Get Fooled Again. Remember Ken Star really thought he had Clinton with that Dress, but the public saw it for what it was a great right wing attempt to dis-credit the president and the party, he was the symbol, that lead to the change, they hated that guy more for what he stood for than Monica etc. They ended up taking power because the parted got divided. Its a jump of logic to compare the two but its the same game just on a smaller scale, trust me I know. The mayor they bake is equal to the votes they take. Think about it.

08-06-2002, 06:06 AM
And so the plot thickens: Ed Leswig (who I only know from Royal's list as CDP Black Bass Lake Leader) attended last nights city council meeting with petition in hand and collected signatures. Looks like we have candidate number two for mayor.

08-06-2002, 06:56 AM
I agree with Persona. You do not have to be Madame Taressa with a crystal ball to see what is coming down the Pike.
Anyone remember whar Cripple Creek Colorado was like BEFORE gambling? I DO, my folks had a cabin there and I spent a lot of my summer vacations there growing up. Go there NOW and look at the place. Disgusting to sell out to gambling like that....oh...what is that, those people say? They DIDN'T sell out? Their businesses were FORCED out by government(?) and bought up for a nickel on the dollar, refurbished into WONDERFUL, BEAUTIFUL, RESTORED TO THE PERIOD OF EXTRAVAGANT ELEGANCE....(with help possible through government "grants")...and........................................... .................................................. .............

made into casinos.
And they all lived happily ever after.

[This message has been edited by becsflowers (edited 08-06-2002).]

Becky Davis
08-06-2002, 07:04 AM
Royal, Before the CDP, what was the name of the group that claimed they were not a political action group, but actually were. The name of that group just seems to have changed and is now the CDP. I mean the players are the same. Correct?
Actually Persona is right. Beau was pretty much a cultural overthrow. I have stood behind all of the time until this last year. He seems to have become one of them or at least a psuedo one of them. And it seems that everytime he turns around he is shooting himself in the foot.
Lucinda before Beau, Barbara O'Harris, we elected a dead Mayor. Mayor Berry.
I have old Eureka Times Echo papers from the sixties and seventies.
This cultural war against the art and service community by the bank and business men goes back a long way. When the town was flourishing the same group was threatened with losing power and did not like the new element of the hippies and the craftsmen who were now on the scene and bringing in tourism. Because they did not control it.
Some of the faces have changed and some of the names, but alot remain.
Jack Moyer was not here then. Neither were the Roegniks. I know the Roegniks do not like Beau and I am sure they will back Jack to the hilt. So you have new money throwing in with old money. It is all to gain control.
They have specific ideas of how the town should run and they intend for it to be that way again.
The very day I moved to Eureka the owner of the towntown parking lot let me know in a hurry, he hated hippies. That was ten years ago.
It would be nice if one of the oldtimers would post and let us know why this was the general feeling ten years ago. Even thirty years ago.
For many years it has been speculated that the area is being scouted for gambling casinos. No one has presented any concrete proposals yet, but I am sure they will come.

[This message has been edited by Becky Davis (edited 08-06-2002).]

08-06-2002, 07:07 AM

Becky Davis
08-06-2002, 07:16 AM
Thanks Bec, I was drawing a blank. Not enough coffee. Where are you now?
Isn't it strange that this group quietly disappeared and up pops the CDP? Are we looking at a wolf in sheep's clothing?
It was not supposed to be political. Just neighbors banding together to help neighbors?

[This message has been edited by Becky Davis (edited 08-06-2002).]

08-06-2002, 07:25 AM
Same ol' same ol'! Stiring the soup! Left wing in a right wing stew!
No, really, same house, same street...different day...
When are ya coming down to visit, and can we get together for coffee when ya do?

Dwight Ott
08-06-2002, 08:05 AM
An astute assessment...
This cultural war against the art and service community by the bank and business men goes back a long way. When the town was flourishing the same group was threatened with losing power and did not like the new element of the hippies and the craftsmen who were now on the scene and bringing in tourism. Because they did not control it.>>>

New money and old money mixed together for control. And they can buy enough influence and create enough smokescreens to keep a real democratic process stifled. Re...the upcoming (S)election.

08-06-2002, 09:37 AM
Since we currently have just one announced candidate for mayor, James DeVito....James, what is your position on gambling/casinos in Eureka Springs? Are you for or against? I know there's a separate thread, but the topic about choosing a mayor is also here.

Dwight Ott
08-06-2002, 10:07 AM
Becky and Sweetness, get with the vision...

Victorian-style casinos flanked by an "imagination is the only limitation" parking deck, built, of course beside "affordable housing units" again in Victorian style. This will allow that cascading fool-the-tourist water feature in Basin Park. Imagine it. We can have whatever we want. We are only limited by imagination.

(Sure, every machine will have an appropriate doilie on top.)

Royal Alcott
08-06-2002, 10:09 AM

The first ESIC was organized here by the carpetbaggers in the 19th century.

The second appeared just before the last election. The candidates included Jack Dozier and Ed Leswig.

The rebel Mayor was Richard Shoeninger (sp?) who won twice but resigned during his second term. He's here now. Ask him why he resigned.

Louise Berry was Mayor but she was running for City Council when she died. She had qualified to be on the ballott and Aransas law keeps a qualified name on a ballott. The idea is that an election is a contest and the winner was the choice of more voters than the competition.

The law also requires the City Council to elect someone to replace the dead winner.

Does anyone remember who took Ms Berry's place on the Council?

She was Denver, Arkansas, just a long par five from Bear Creek Springs.

Royal Alcott
08-06-2002, 10:19 AM
Becky- PS

Like John Cross, Jack Moyer is close to the Arkansas Department of Parks & Tourism and their ad agency CJRW.

P&T complains that the state can not compete with the casinos in Mississippi which take Arkansas money in boxcar loads.

CJRW handled advertising and promtion for the last Arkansas initiative for gambling. It lost.

Wouldn't Blue Spring be a grand setting for a hotel/casino/convention operation!

Royal Alcott
08-06-2002, 10:51 AM
Becky- PPS

I believe Yuuma was first hired here by Jack Moyer when he chaired the Chamber of Commerce. The project was a redesign of the Chamber organization. A Yuuman now chairs the CofC?

Yuuma has also been hired by the Eureka Springs Hospital commission, chaired by a BofES executive, to do a survey about town opinions.

Yuuma was hired to write grant proposals for the CDP and organize and disburse funds for CDP member lobbying trips to Washington, D.C. (members of Congress, federal agencies) and Little Rock, (P&T, CJRW, ADED, Governor's Office, AHPP).

I believe that Yuuma has been involved in the Dudley Do-Right media photo ops for CDP Steering Committee member/candidates.

Becky Davis
08-06-2002, 11:52 AM
Dwight, Royal, Stop. You're giving me nightmares.

08-06-2002, 01:52 PM
Or do we need to start requesting round the clock security for Royal?

08-06-2002, 09:49 PM
Did someone say Leswig was running for mayor?
Isn't that cozy. Isn't that the same guy that has secret meetings with other CDP member KD and council man Hoser? I've watched him in meeting after meeting so lets hope your kidding. You can aways tell when he is lying. Watch his face.

08-06-2002, 10:20 PM
Maybe Ed has more than one petition being signed...the one he showed everyone at council saying "mayor", and one for Ward 2 he'll hand in to the clerk's office when he signs up to run.

If so, he's the third candidate I've heard doing the same thing.

Hope there's not a fist fight at the clerks office come 11:58, Sept. 6th, when 5 potentials all want to sign in on the same dotted line by 12:00 noon.

Mary Pat at the Lovely said she couldn't get a straight answer from him, which for a real candidate, is pretty weird. Usually, a real candidate can't wait to get the free press.

We'll see.....

08-06-2002, 10:37 PM
Remember the beginning of this topic?

It makes you wonder why anyone would run for office at all.

So was it motivated by tax or recent facts?

Persona Non Gratis
08-07-2002, 12:42 AM
I check in nightly after a long day, glad to see your staying the course, seams you guys are starting to take a look at whats going on their. Its a cultural war, and these people think they have kicked your guy hard and dis-credited the deeper thinking folks, don't get fooled. You people need to rally now, who knows if your Mayor will run again but you need not let them take power. There is enough of you if you band together and stay the course. You need to be talking about this to everyone, get people informed now. I am glad to see your thinking and this is good. Positive thought does quite a bit against, the Evil Empire that exsist. They don't expect you to pull it together to rally, to think this deep. They really under estimate you people in Eureka. Remember they think your flakes, crazies,etc.
As I have told you before this is a combined effort to dismantle the mayor but greater than that the opposition which he and you have always opposed thinks your divided and not looking at the facts. This is not against progress for your community but the taking over and selling of your community to the highest bidder at the cost of saying its for Tourism, sure it is. These guys are cornballs, but there not stupid, their well orginized and the old cornballs have joined the new cornballs. Is not Tater Chip Patches as cornball as it gets whats that about. This is a battle for the intellectual and cultural side of Eureka, Preserve, Promise and Protect your interest, if not for you there wouldn't be a Eureka for the educated and more discriminating tourist.
Remember the mayor is the symbol they refer to, granted he made himself a target, but he knew this would happen. Really think about it, this guy would of have to sold over 1 million plus, to have these numbers. They use the Media to get to you as much as him. They try an depict Eureka as a mental ward and he is the leader, its an attach on you
all, hence its a cultural war. Till next time.

Steve Beacham
08-07-2002, 08:11 AM
Persona Non Gratis-

As glorius and vive la revoulution as your words are, most of the people that post on this board cannot vote in a city election. They must live in the city limits to vote.

Other than opinions on this board, the influence they can have is by donating money and time to the candidate of their choice.

Dwight Ott
08-07-2002, 08:33 AM
When a valid democratic process has been precluded as in the politics of Eureka Springs, voting merely means approving the present situation and the powers behind it.

08-07-2002, 11:05 AM
Reads like you've taken a page from Pat Buchanan's book. "Cultural War" indeed! Everyone knows there's no culture allowed in Eureka Springs.
I think Bill Earngey served out much of Louise Berry's term, but I can't recall who replaced him.

[This message has been edited by Heretic (edited 08-07-2002).]

James DeVito
08-07-2002, 11:59 AM
I am against gambling in Eureka Springs. The CDP meetings are open to the public. I wish you would learn first hand instead of trusting the opinion of people who have their own agenda. Sometimes people feel a need to serve their community because they believe it is the right thing to do. Having been a street protester like Tom Hayden, I too found it more productive to work on the inside.

Royal Alcott
08-07-2002, 12:37 PM
Mr. DeVito-

Are the Steering Committee meetings open to the public?

Is the CDP 501c3 corporate officers list open to the public?

Are the CDP books open to the public?

Are the CDP/Yuuma lobbying trip reports open to the public?

Are the Yuuma books open to the public?

Are the CDP members' correspondence with state and national officials open to the public?

Are the architect's elevations for the parking garage open to the public?

Is anything open to the public besides your mouth?

08-07-2002, 04:33 PM
As old Sholtz would say verrry interesting. Why is it that a very large B&B that has no CUP and who's owner is part of the DCP also has NO BUSINESS permit and has been open for TWO years.
Hold the press where is the state were MR. Casteel. Where the pickles hold the lettice Special treatment don't upset us.
Same crime different sides of the CDP, ain't
that special.
Mr. Graudis you couldn't have nailed it any better
Mr. Casteel you have a problem you already made it clear about the bussiness lic. offence

08-07-2002, 05:18 PM
Yes....why IS all THAT stuff happening and not being investigated? Hmmmmm....
James, I know you might have good intentions, but, to me, it looks like your buds are trying to make you the patsy.
MAN O MAN. I LOVE being the left wing in a right wing stew.

08-07-2002, 05:23 PM
I’ve been mulling the posts in this thread over and over and there is credibility to Kim’s opinion.... as stated some um, 3 pages back. The notion of herding cats, the irascible nature of Eurekans, and the bit about staunch preservationists favoring gambling. Gambling in Eureka doesn’t fit, y*e*t. The money it would bring into this area fits power and greed but I cannot paint the people of the CDP with that brush. Y*E*T. Maybe I’m naive. It almost does not matter at this juncture if the CDP is the gambit and gambling the goal, because an end run to bring casinos into this area would have to pass a ballot and that war would have to be fought in the open.

What does matter at this point in time is the subtle battle that’s waging now - Control*of*City*Hall. The joke is - it’s not even a battle. They gave a war and nobody came.

PNG’s point is that “they” are close to winning – and winning is really only weeks away from victory if you stop to think about it. No one has to wait until November to find out who wins first prize, just whose face is on the cover of the Citizen. If PNG and others who post here see James DeVito and Ed Leswig as part of this “right wing conspiracy” – helmed I assume by Jack Moyer, from where I sit, unless there is a flurry of activity in the next few days-weeks, pick your man from a choice of two. No pre-election mayoral jitters for anyone but these two men. Kinda takes the fun out of Election Day.

I’ve yet to hear anything along the lines of, “what about so-and-so, wouldn’t he/she be a great choice?” or “I hear so-and-so is thinking about filing, great! We can get behind him/her”. Unless I am so out of the loop and am missing what is really going on, this is where the situation stands. Is this what Dwight means by:

“When a valid democratic process has been precluded as in the politics of Eureka Springs, voting merely means approving the present situation and the powers behind it.

Now, you can blame the CDP or you can blame yourselves for what looks to be a rather one-sided election year. And our “deep throat” can shake his head during one of his insomniac nights as he types “I warned you” albeit too late. This CDP group has a plan and came into August prepared. They took Beau out at the knees with perfect timing. It’s kinda hard to pull a candidate out of the air at the last minute. Or maybe not. As I’ve said before, you guys are the experts and we ARE talking about the next four years here. WHERE are the rest of the candidates?

A group with a well planned, long term objective can gain an enormous foothold in four years. They have the vision and committment to change the face of this town, indelibly. The question will be, how? And who knows, this group as least has its S**T together where, at the very least, “organization” seems to be otherwise lacking everywhere else. Maybe that’s not a bad thing. (Hurl rotten tomatoes now or take this statement as a challenge to action)

PS: But if people here think that “accountability” was difficult with the current administration, better get yer act together to demand it of this new one.

[This message has been edited by Lucinda (edited 08-07-2002).]

08-07-2002, 05:30 PM
And Becsflowers - a question maybe you can help me with. Isn't James DeVito a Democrat? Isn't Leswig? Isn't most of Eureka? Therefore can I take it the "right wing" comments are "eureka specific" i.e "tree huggers vs stumpheads" as someone put it and not traditional in nature - such as right=republican left=democrat
Thanx ;)

Becky Davis
08-07-2002, 05:47 PM
Royal, Please don't talk that way.

Royal Alcott
08-07-2002, 05:56 PM

In Eureka Springs Left means one for all as in gung ho.

Right means all for one as in one who wants it all.

08-07-2002, 06:08 PM
Thanks Royal, I was asking my sister, about PNG’s post regarding an insider in the governors office hammering Beau on the tax thing. She’s an elected Republican in Oklahoma and staunch party member. She is not buying a Republican, Baptist governor having any staff member, knowingly or not, aiding any group behind gambling – much less aiding anyone on a Democrat ticket. But, hey, money and power is bipartisan.

[This message has been edited by Lucinda (edited 08-07-2002).]

08-07-2002, 07:03 PM
OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH......... so THAT's what's wrong with them.....they're DEMOCRATS!

08-07-2002, 07:46 PM
And what's wrong with me - the only democrat in a long line of republicans :)

Becky Davis
08-07-2002, 09:20 PM
You are not alone Lucinda. It is my honest intention to never vote republican again.

08-08-2002, 07:18 AM
Just havin some fun with ya, girls! My most precious other half is DEMOCRAT...
LOL !!!!!
But seriously, we should get a feel on what all our candidates feel about the issues, and one of the most important ones is the one opening the gambling door for us in the next few years.
NOT that it would necessarily be a BAD thing or would certainly be a GOOD thing....
But IF it happens, I want to be sure that the opportunity for a "SLOT IN EVERY POT" is there.
Just thought I was TEASIN about all those dancin' girls?

Becky Davis
08-10-2002, 08:57 AM
Lucinda, I agree with your sister. I don't think for a moment Governor Huckabee would condone gambling casinos. He has always stood against them.
One thing about PNG's post that I remember is that he talks about people moving in here from California. Is that not where you are from? Do you feel you fit the profile or agenda he was so adamant about?

08-10-2002, 10:10 AM
Yes Becky, I did move here from California/NY and fit the baby boomer/retiree profile, with the discriminating tastes ;)

But, if you talking about the sinister dark side of the PNG agenda, no. I could be, I know how those games are played, I have worked with and for masters of the game, but I'm not a player or a participant. If I had those qualities in my makeup, I would have retired here with a much larger bank account, would be in full-up retirement and with no mortgage ;) But I came here for one reason only; it's where my children live. Fortunately they live in the place I want to be.

My "thing" in Eureka is and will be "preservation" at all cost. It is what Eureka has to sell, it's her draw and her calling card, history and uniqueness and must never loose. Perhaps that is what some who have lived here too long tend to take a bit for granted after awhile. Like I began not to even “see” celebrities after living in Hollywood after awhile when tourists could not miss them. I remember standing next to Streisand waiting for a valet to bring my car and remarking that I must have toilet tissue stuck to my heel because people were pointing at me. Did not even see her. Maybe the ones trying to change the historic district just don’t see how vital the district is to the well being of Eureka’s future. They just don’t even see her.

08-10-2002, 11:07 AM
Ed: Aren't you from California? Is gambling the reason why you might run for mayor?

08-10-2002, 11:16 AM
Gambling blights and cheapens any community it's ever moved into. Not to mention what it does to the crime rate.

Persona Non Gratis
08-12-2002, 08:55 PM
We its been a few days visted your little town again, I somewhat enjoy my relaxing time there. I have noticed such silence on this topic as you grow closer to your election time and filing expect another attacks toward the mayor or those representing the non political elite side.
The non establishment vote is out there, the key is not to forget there is more at stake than meets the eye. Just 2 days ago NWA was on the front of the NY Times front page as a desired place, the ozark mountains for business and development for Entrepreneur.
These people are thinking outside the bubble as to the future of your fine community. The problem sometimes can be when your in the bubble on a daily basis its hard to see what the world outside it is thinking and doing. The forces working against your mayor and you as a community, know this. The symbol of the change and the loose of power is as big as the cause itself to this organised Mafia that is the cancer trying to fight for control of such important real estate. There are not many places in the world like the bubble and many people want to get their piece of it. You folks in the bubble, you have the power to give there heads trouble. See its all about control of the bubble.
Think about it.