View Full Version : P.T.L Scandel in Eureka Springs?

07-27-2002, 09:20 AM
I am planning a protest march to be held in front of City Hall. We are going to carry signs that insist the CAPC follow through with their agreement to PAY OUR PIMPS.
I can see the headlines now
I have a new pair of cherry red platform shoes I’ve wanted to wear but they make me look like a hooker. I refuse to look like a hooker unless I’m going to be paid. But in this case I am walkin’ the streets for love!!! For love and honor. The CAPC voted in favor to Pay –The- Ladies for their services to Eureka Springs. I am outraged and I think this is just the kind of story the media will pick up on.
Just incase Mr. Satori and his puppets think they need some more negative press. I hope his puppets know that when the show is over and the Puppet Masters hands are cuffed, they are going to be lying in a box waiting for someone else to pull their strings. Everybody in town knows what you stand for and its not Eureka Springs. So before I put on my red shoes and start walkin’ the CAPC members who are changing the terms of the agreement to pay, which contradict the minutes of the meeting, might consider how it will reflect on their reputation. Just P.T.L Pay the ladies. Does Eureka need another lawsuit? I don’t think so. Can it be avoided YES!!! Just P.T.L !!!!!!!!!!!!! Pay Our P.I.M.P.S!!!!!!!These girls don’t work for free Mr. Mayor. Do you need a little more embarrassment before you leave office? Neither does Eureka Springs.

[This message has been edited by soulself (edited 07-28-2002).]

07-27-2002, 11:11 AM
By the way, Mr. Zickmund, I ‘m not sure if this will make you feel any better but, you haven’t been “Raped” you’ve been prostituted. So just put on some high heelz and let’s start walkin’

[This message has been edited by soulself (edited 07-27-2002).]

Royal Alcott
07-27-2002, 01:58 PM

At Thursday's meeting of the City Advertising and Promotion Commission (the full commission, not just the finance committee) a motion to pay some $7000 passed.

Ar you saying there is more money due than this?

07-27-2002, 03:01 PM
Soulself.. you are so right!! I don't know why the CAPC don't just cut the girls a check, like they said they would do! I wouldn't blame the girls if they sued the city!

07-27-2002, 03:38 PM
Did u not see the capc meeting?,they are paying them and i can't believe it. If their was proof that the money was owed then i would say pay them, but that is not the case.PIM where is the PROOF, the capc taxpayers deserve to know. We should protest why are we paying them money when we don't even know for sure if it is owed to them? If any of you are wandering why i am oops2 is because they hacked my password and i can't log in with oops anymore,that wasn't right. I think PIM has some capc members in their pocket.

07-27-2002, 03:48 PM
"Put on your high heel sneakers and your wig hat on your head, 'cuz we're going out tonight. I'm pretty sure we're gonna knock some people dead."

07-27-2002, 04:02 PM
Where do I start and how do I explain to the stubbornly terminally ignorant that PIMs DOES have proof and capc has it? It's a signed contract that capc agreed to for a certain period of time, for a specific amount and specified duties. PIMs has completed the specific contract duties as agreed to. The capc has not paid them the balance due on the contract. They have invoices to prove they are owed this money. Do you have verifiable proof they are not due this money? If so, please bring it forward and ....please...no little birdie doo-doo twittering in your ear or where ever.

More Curiouser: I had other people in mind when I wrote "Envy," but he coulda been a contender, too.

Royal Alcott
07-27-2002, 04:29 PM

Since the commission voted to pay last Thursday,what is soulself talking about and who are the puppets?

07-27-2002, 04:40 PM
Although voted and approved by the capc commissioners to pay PIMs, these directives were not followed as the commissioners voted and the check has not been delivered as ordered. I used to run thru department stores with my credit card in my outstretched hoof, yelling, "CHARGE IT!" Now my cry is "Who is in charge?" My other cry is "When in doubt, ask those involved."

You'll have to ask soulself about the puppets.

Royal Alcott
07-27-2002, 06:18 PM

The vote was Thursday. This is Saturday. There has been only one business day since the vote.

When was the check expected?

What is the problem?

07-27-2002, 07:04 PM
Good grief, Royal... how much longer should they wait, since they weren't paid when due, according to the contract? Maybe they should be accruing interest from the date the initial payment was due. They were put off from receiving it from one day to another, and then...(viola!) wah la!!! someone invented more paper work with a whole bunch of new cc&r's before the check would be handed over.

Have any of the other site contractors (Simon, et al) had to go through this? No? I guess PIMs is just really 'special'.

07-27-2002, 07:06 PM
maybe the girls don't sue because they know
they are'nt owed the money....

could this be?

Royal Alcott
07-27-2002, 07:47 PM

What paper work?

Since I have no idea what is holding up a check or who or why and you seem to know can you tell me?

Larry Williams
07-27-2002, 07:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by oops_2:
Did u not see the capc meeting?,they are paying them and i can't believe it. If their was proof that the money was owed then i would say pay them, but that is not the case.PIM where is the PROOF, the capc taxpayers deserve to know. We should protest why are we paying them money when we don't even know for sure if it is owed to them? If any of you are wandering why i am oops2 is because they hacked my password and i can't log in with oops anymore,that wasn't right. I think PIM has some capc members in their pocket.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay Oops, maybe it's time to step up and come out from under your sheet. How about your name? My guess is that you're one of those involved in paying CRJW with no documentation at all. You paid a debt based on an illegal and, therefore, void contract because it illegally put the City in deficit. Why are so many who were involved in that fiasco so critical now?

I don't mind asking for documentation; it's the right thing to do. Once produced, it's the City's obligation to pay their bills. But then around here it all seems to be based on GOB connections and under-the-table loyalties.

Shut up Oops or give us your name.

Forever Curious
07-27-2002, 08:11 PM
S&L: "More Curiouser: I had other people in mind when I wrote "Envy," but he coulda been a contender, too."

A contender, no doubt!!! Thanks for remembering me. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/smile.gif

oops_2: "If any of you are wandering why i am oops2 is because they hacked my password and i can't log in with oops anymore,that wasn't right."

Well, I wasn't wondering anything much more than why they didn't do it sooner since it's within their power to do so. You definitely have this "thing" with being "hacked", don't you? Too, too bad for you that you don't understand the meaning of the word. How can they hack anything having to do with you, or your computer, when probably all that was done is someone nonchalantly changed the password for oops on their own server. Not hacking. Right or not is a question for someone other than me, and for sure someone other than you. Is what you've been doing right?

seemstome: "maybe the girls don't sue because they know they are'nt owed the money...."

After that lesson Jan gave us about the IP numbers, it sure makes me want to see if oops and seemstome don't have the same one at the same time. How can we find out? It won't let me check those numbers. Blush. I tried.

What's the vendetta boys, or girls? Why would you want to keep a city contractor from being paid for services rendered, no matter who it is?

S&L, thanks again. I do need to find you some more chocolate. Sorry I'm so far behind in my payments. Yikes!

I am Woman! I love Eureka Springs! I remain undaunted!

I am - Forever Curious

07-27-2002, 08:31 PM
just because we disagree with u does not make
us the same people...i happen to belive by all the info provided that they are'nt owed the
money...i belive the members on the capc who
voted to pay them have other involvements
with these women...i do not belive the "city"
would try to cheat anyone out of what is due
to them.....this is just little ole me disagreeing with u about this subject...i belive its time that this board has people
who stand up to those who think they know
the correct infomation...when in reality
u do not do the research needed to get the
correct info..or the facts...i belive its
my right to disagree if i wish....

[This message has been edited by seemstome (edited 07-27-2002).]

Forever Curious
07-27-2002, 08:53 PM
Yup, it's your right to disagree, and no one would argue with that.

It's your right to be wrong too, just like it's mine.

ForeverCurious does not go without doing her research, however, and I take offense at that accusation. Homework is the key.

Perhaps you could try it some time.

I am Woman! I love Eureka Springs! I remain undaunted!

I am - Forever Curious

Kim Yonkee
07-28-2002, 12:16 AM
Ok Forever Curious, be curious no more. IP addresses are revealed. For those who don't know this:

If you want to see which provider this is, you have to look up the number at the American Registry of Internet Numbers: www.arin.net (http://www.arin.net)

All one has to do to change IP addresses is log off and then log back in to the internet. Since most ISP's use what's called "dynamic IP assignment," you're going to get a new IP address at every session. Hence, you can't really tell if two posters are the same person from IP address alone.

And as for the topic of this thread ... Holy Samoleon! This is a small town, isn't it? The real person behind the S&L name happened to call in the middle of this ordeal, but soulself? Geez! How did you find out about this? Unlike "seemstome," I can't figure out who you are via recognizable quirks of verbal expression. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif

I guess the answer to that question doesn't matter since this is, after all, a public issue. The deal is, the CAPC Finance Committee recommended that our bill be paid to the full commission. The full CAPC commission affirmed this decision on Thursday. About 4:00 PM on Thursday, Sheila the Bookkeeper called and said, "You can pick up the check tomorrow."

"Tommorrow" (Friday), came ... and Executive Director BKD called and said, "We just have this little document for you to sign before we'll give you that check." We had prepared a one paragraph "receipt" that said, "we acknowledge full & final payment, you acknowledge that you've received The Disk." We do have a contract that specifies this behavior and ... good heavens! What were we thinking!?!? I forgot about the Special Rules for PIM for a minute there.

BKD's document was 3 pages long and full of various erroneous claims that were never uttered by the CAPC who are, um... BKD's employer. [Hello to PIM employees here .. and not that I need to say this, but if you ever set me up like this, guess what? You're fired. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif]

Said document had absolutely nothing to do with the CAPC motion or vote ... or with anything approaching 3D reality, for that matter. (I'm not considering all things under the heading of "I guess it was just paranoia" to be 3D reality for this discussion).

Who came up with the POW confession we have to sign in order to get the contract payment due to us and voted as such by the CAPC? According to BKD in a conversation that was loud enough to be heard by me from another room:

CAPC Commissioner: We voted to pay this bill; we didn't vote to pay it under a bunch of new conditions. Who authorized you to hire an attorney for this?
BKD: I took it upon myself.
CAPC Commissioner: "Who do you work for? We told you to pay this."
BKD: "Yes, but you didn't say when." [insert nanny,nanny woo woo here].

Now, you see, we have departed from the aformentioned Kafka novel into a Cheech & Chong routine, "I can't sign the papers!...You must sign zee papers!!...then take that cigarette out of my eye---eeeee!!!" http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Actually, folks, the last bill the CAPC actually paid went through May 11. We're just trying to collect the bills to 6/11 and 7/11. The Commission said, "pay it" and, as has become tradition, the staff decided that they had other plans.

Bear in mind for a moment here that 100% of the membership of the finance committee has examined every record they felt necessary to convince them that the CAPC owes this bill. Which, you see, is why they recommended that the commission pay it. In all other cases except PIM contracts, the finance committee is responsible for making these decisions.

The FC decided to pay it. The CAPC decided to pay it. The administrative staff just won't do it.

BKD keeps chanting that she "must protect the city" but can't answer the question, "protect the city from what?"

And yes, all of the finance committee has "other relationships" with us. So does Jon Loudermilk, and it doesn't seem to have affected his behavior one iota. Let's reflect on this for a moment: We have a bunch of people who know us to be honest and ethical in a number of different situations, and one person who flees the scene when this fact is pointed out to him, as in "How can you make up this [expletive] after doing business with us for so long?" [sound of rustling paper and departing footsteps]

Until Thursday, the game has been, "Let's find a way to prove we don't have to pay this." Now that they've been told to pay, the game seems to be "Let's make them spend all the money on legal fees trying to collect this debt."

It's really just the same old thing as it ever was. The CAPC gets to vote on when the Christmas lights go up. As far as I can tell, that's the only decision the commission has the power to enforce. If we can figure out some way to relate this CAPC pay-order to the installation of Christmas lights, we can probably get the matter resolved. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

07-28-2002, 08:17 AM
Thank you for not mentioning that I spelled scandal with an E.
Kim, this is a small town. That is one of the reasons I get so aggravated about all this silly stuff. All you have to do is the right thing once you know what it is. How hard can that be? I hope I just jumped the gun on this post and PIMS gets paid first thing Monday morning. Good luck.
I have to go. I have a date with Sweetness & Light and I can only find one red shoe.

Royal Alcott
07-28-2002, 08:36 AM

What is the right thing?

In the CAPC meeting on July 25 there was a discussion about a motion to pay money for web services performed.

The discussion centered around a question of when the services began. The matter of when a change in hosting occurred seemed to be the effective date of the contract.

The money was said to be owed for the first two months of services performed.

Wasn't the vote to pay based on that assumption?

Has the commission received an invoice for the amount owed stating the time period in which the debt occurred?

Was it the first two months of the contract as stated in the discussion or the last two months as stated elsewhere?

07-28-2002, 08:41 AM
the full commission affirmed...maybe you
should go back and watch the meeting i believe
some commissioners did not agree with this
decision...is'nt it funny how we see things
in a different light.

07-28-2002, 09:04 AM
You're missing the point Royal. The CAPC did not tell anyone to spend $17000 on Simon Overby. They did it anyway. The CAPC did tell them to renew the PIM contract. They didn't do it. The CAPC did tell them to pay PIM. They won't do it. It doesn't matter who Bo's friends like. This is supposed to be a government not a grade school clique. What is right is to stop lying and sneaking around. The CAPC has made a decision. If the staff won't do it, fire them. If the CAPC won't be responsible for their employees, get rid of the CAPC. This is wrong Eureka! How long are we going to let bobos brat pack run this town? Call your CAPC commissioners and tell them to PAY OUR PIMPS!!!!

07-28-2002, 09:32 AM
That's why they call it a commission seemstome. Doing whatever you want is anarchy. Maybe you should watch the council meeting where Bo said he was going to appoint Jon again because he is so good at doing what he's told. Fine with me if Bo and Jon want to run this town however they want. Let them do it on their own money. The majority of the capc and the majority of the town doesn't want to give them free rein with tax money. When is this going to stop?

Royal Alcott
07-28-2002, 09:57 AM

For what months of services are payment still outstanding?

Weren't the final two months services, June and July, 2002, billed and paid?

Has an invoice for the time period involved been tendered?

For the record, Jon Loudermilk did not vote since there was not a tie vote in the commission.

This payment for services is the issue here.

If you want to complain about the check writing record of the various City Advertising and Promotion Commisison members over the years, start another thread.

07-28-2002, 11:33 AM
Mr. Alcott, I believe Kim answers all of your questions in her post earlier in this thread.
Also I believe this is an appropriate thread for unome to complain about the check writing record of the CAPC, that is the topic.
Aren’t you curious to know things like… Does everyone who receives a check from the CAPC have to sign a three-page document that has nothing to do with anything? How much did they have to pay an attorney to write up all the double talk, when all they need is a freakin’ receipt? They could have gotten that from Kim Friday morning at no cost, when she was originally told she could pick up the check. .I don’t know Mr. Alcott, it just makes me wonder…why….who….what….and again why? But I don’t really even have to know. Just PAY THE LADIES!!!!!
Not you Mr. Alcott.

[This message has been edited by soulself (edited 07-28-2002).]

07-28-2002, 11:36 AM
Kim, I would like to apologize for bringing all of this up. I don’t know you. I only know who you are. I overheard a conversation about the legal document you were surprised with which was not discussed in the CAPC meeting or approved by any committee.
This along with several other bold steps taken by someone wearing big ugly boots walking all over people just made me mad. So I took it upon myself to start yelling before those boots get to my door. I would hope that everyone taking advantage of this open forum would feel the same way. I apologize if I have made anything more difficult for you. This should all be over soon. All they have to do is throw that document in the trash can and eat the unnecessary attorneys fees. When I say eat it, I mean pay it out of the pocket of the person who ordered the attorneys services without the approval of the committee. I am only assuming the attorney does not work for free. Maybe they will talk about appropriating those funds after the fact. Maybe that is the way they will do things this time. Excuse me Kim I am getting a little confused..
Mr. Alcott are you still there? Maybe you can explain how this committee business is supposed to work. I thought…. well…. never mind. I need to go lay down. Sorry to bother you.

[This message has been edited by soulself (edited 07-29-2002).]

Royal Alcott
07-28-2002, 12:18 PM

I do not know which party to this matter hired an attorney first. So I do not know which party hired an attorney in response.

I do not know the contents of the legal document you describe.

In the July 25 meeting of the City Advertising and Promotion Commission, prior to the vote, there was some discussion about attorney opinions differing on what was owed for what services.

Does the document request something that states when those services were performed?

Such documents, normally invoices, are required by standard accounting practices as underlying documents supporting records of funds disbursed.

What is this document and why is it interpreted as a refusal to pay?

Royal Alcott
07-28-2002, 02:12 PM

A committee is a small group within a larger group. The small group has specific responsibilities within the scope of the general responsibilities of the larger group.

A commitee may investigate a matter related to the work of the larger group and report it's findings and recommendtions to the larger group.

But no vote in a committee is binding on the larger group.

A member of the CAPC finance committee argued in the commission meeting that the money was due for work done at the beginning of the contract. If the finance committee concurred that would have been the core of the recommendation made to the commission.

Do the minutes of the finance committee meeting contain the details of the motion to pay on which the committee voted?

Voices of Reason
07-28-2002, 02:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kim:
I guess the answer to that question doesn't matter since this is, after all, a public issue. The deal is, the CAPC Finance Committee recommended that our bill be paid to the full commission. The full CAPC commission affirmed this decision on Thursday. About 4:00 PM on Thursday, Sheila the Bookkeeper called and said, "You can pick up the check tomorrow."

"Tommorrow" (Friday), came ... and Executive Director BKD called and said, "We just have this little document for you to sign before we'll give you that check." We had prepared a one paragraph "receipt" that said, "we acknowledge full & final payment, you acknowledge that you've received The Disk." We do have a contract that specifies this behavior and ... good heavens! What were we thinking!?!? I forgot about the Special Rules for PIM for a minute there.

BKD's document was 3 pages long and full of various erroneous claims that were never uttered by the CAPC who are, um... BKD's employer. [Hello to PIM employees here .. and not that I need to say this, but if you ever set me up like this, guess what? You're fired. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif]

Said document had absolutely nothing to do with the CAPC motion or vote ... or with anything approaching 3D reality, for that matter. (I'm not considering all things under the heading of "I guess it was just paranoia" to be 3D reality for this discussion).

Who came up with the POW confession we have to sign in order to get the contract payment due to us and voted as such by the CAPC?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kim, not to be adversarial, in all honesty, but just a few honest questions:

Do these "claims" include an admission that you used CAPC public money to promote your private Website?

Some people have complained that clicking on eurekasprings.ORG through a search engine took them to your private Website, eurekasprings.COM, not once, not twice, but repeatedly.

They have also complained that sending a private email postcard from eurekasprings.ORG was received with reference to your private Website, eurekasprings.COM; to wit, all postcards have www.eurekasprings.com (http://www.eurekasprings.com) (Your personal, private enterprise) printed on them although they are sent from the eurekasprings.ORG site (A publicly-funded site paid for with CAPC funds).

Could you also explain why the .ORG site you created for $40K was to be portable per the terms of the contract, but apparently isn't, given that the CAPC is having to respend thousands of dollars to recreate what you represented to be portable?

Are these some of the REAL reasons the contract was not renewed and why BKD is trying to "protect" the city?

A Collective Voice of Reason

07-28-2002, 02:41 PM
i wonder if the people on the commission
who voted to pay...do they do private business with pims...i know for a fact that
two of them do...these people should not be allowed to vote...this seems like a conflict
of interest to me...

07-28-2002, 05:10 PM
My only question would be protect the city from what? No matter what the fat lady has sang and it seems like just a check and a kiss good buy would have ended it.
Isn't KD God of Eureka?

Jan Ridenour
07-28-2002, 07:06 PM
OK..We'll try and beat this dead horse one more time. In 1999, we (PIM) were hired by the CAPC to build, maintain, and host the .org website. Since it has been previously built in a manner which was not portable we were told to build a portable site using all hand coding. That is what we did. We were also instructed by the CAPC of that era and the two commissioners who were the Internet committee to use ALL external links to things that already existed as to not re-invent the wheel.

Two of these things were SOME of the postcards on .com and database entries. We did this as instructed.

The 1999 contract was signed by James DeVito in July 1999. It states it is in effect for "one year from date of execution."

In July 2000, the CAPC voted to continue our existing contract with a few changes. These changes included terms that all of the information, photographs, etc would be furnished by the CAPC to PIM. And all database entries would be furnished by the CAPC to PIM. Since the CAPC was getting ready to have a staff in place, they felt like they could furnish to us everything they wanted on the site. The city attorney and our attorney hammered out the details of that contract and it was signed by Jon Loudermilk in July, 2000.

The CAPC never met the terms of their own contract.

Early in 2001, we met with Jef Russell and Lynn Carrington and other staff members and told them if they were thinking of taking the web site inhouse, then we had suggestions and ideas for them to make the transition an easy one. We offered to structure the site so that any employee there could update certain sections without knowing any HTML or other coding.
We never heard from them again regarding this matter.

In the Spring of 2002, (late March I believe) it was brought the attention of the commission that Simon Overbey has been hired in November of 2001 to build a new web site for .org. His total billing is somewhere around 17,000.00

Again in late March and early April of 2002, we met with the committees and gave them the suggestion of since they had built a new site, it would make sense to have it go live before mid tourist season and we were willing to be bought out of our existing contract of 2 years. The CAPC didn't want to do that...they also didn't seem to want to switch horses in the middle of the season. We also offered to extend our existing contract until Feb 2003 in order to give them time to figure the exact direction they wanted to go. Remember, that the new site was built without the full commission knowledge.

On April 11, 2002, the CAPC had a regular meeting and at that time, Lynn Carrington/Barry announced the new (Simon Overbey) site was ready to go aside from simply "making it pretty." Lynn also presented the commission with reports/proposals on redoing the site among other things. One of these was from DCS and one from some guy in GA...Frank Roberts..who didn't have a phone/address, or any other businesses contacts on his. We have this if anyone wants a copy.

The Mayor also started hammering again on the fact that many links including some postcards and database links went to the .dot com site. Yep, always did. Again we did what we told to do by the commission of that era. I told the Mayor we could have the .com postcards gone by the time he went to dinner....and we did. I also asked him if he or the commission would like to have all references to .com removed...and that could happen too. But they needed to be ready to explain to 200 plus businesses why their links disappeared. Jon put a sqaush on that one. Then the Mayor tried to not allow the commissioners to vote that did business with us...and he then accused us of blackmailing the city. (it was yet another goofball televised meeting)...

Anyway, the commission voted to extend our existing contract until Feb 2003.

About a week later we gave Jon a very simple 3 paragraph extention. By late May, he had still not signed it, but informed us he had given it to Kim Dickens to give to an attorney in Springdale. The next email from Jon is stating that the attorney wants to change the transition terms of the contract. The contract stated "upon receipt of final payment, the contents of the .org site would be furnished to the CAPC on CD rom."

I advised Jon that the commission had voted to extend our contract, not re-write it. In early June 2002, we decided that is was not worth trying to give the commission more time as they had wanted because it was apparent that even though they voted to extend, the chairman and staff members had something else in mind.

We withdrew our offer to extend and advised the CAPC that we would simply end our contract by its own terms on July 12, 2002.

The commissioners had no idea that Jon had never signed the extension.

Sometime in April or May, the staff evidently decided to hire DCS to perform some sort of work or consultation, as they were written checks in early June, 2002. Looking back, it would appear that during the time Jon was supposed to be carrying out the commission vote, he and staffers were spending yet more money for the .org site.

As of July 12, 2002, the CD rom was ready for the CAPC to have. In fact, in a conversation with Barbara (BKD) we told her we could give it to her early and they could load the contents with their new host and not have any down time. She informed us they didn't need it as DCS was rebuilding the entire site. I believe this expenditure is somewhere around $4000.00 although in the April 11, 2002 meeting they were going to work for 30.00 and hour, but we have the document stating they are paying 50.00 per hour. We have the 30.00 an hour quote too.

So, the site we were paid to do sits on a CD rom, complete with all the databases from .com and all.
Truth is, they didn't have to spend a dime with Overbey or DCS which so far has been about 21,000.00 plus the salary of the new person Eric who is handling the site...at the tune of another 32,000.00....and it's only July.

It's as portable as the day it was built. Why the current CAPC staff chose not to use it, you'll have to ask them.

To Voices of Reason, no the claims have nothing to do with .com or any private website..in fact it doesn't mention the contract terms at all.

Seemstome, you're sounding a bit like your brother.

Now, I have some questions:

Why is it that staff ignores the vote of the commission?

Can someone furnish me the name of another contractor that has ever been held to the standards and requests for signed documents that PIM has? I know, I know it's an FOI.

Why is it OK for DCS to build a site and link their database to our .com site customers and no one says a word?

Why are thousands of dollars paid to someone with no visable business for a site that isn't used and we can't
get paid without jumping through burning hoops?

If any of you want to see the above referenced materials, call our office and come on up. The door is always open.

What we would really like is to end this, get paid and go on to the projects we have in continuing to promote Eureka.
The Eureka Springs Tourist Center at www.eurekasprings.com (http://www.eurekasprings.com) and Fly Eureka at www.flyeureka.com (http://www.flyeureka.com)

And as we are successful at bringing folks to town and they spend money, who do you thinks get the 2% ?

Who's funding whose ventures?


07-28-2002, 07:18 PM

its a debate weather or not u bring tourist
to this town...

and im not who u think i am.....

just because i do not agree with how u
do business does not mean a big beau fan.

i do pay my capc taxs and i may not always
agree with capc..i do on this one....

why would u not try to collect money that
was owed u months before this happened...

most people want their money when its due!

anyone can come up with a paper trail....
even after the date...

i don't belive that u are owed the money
and if u are why wouldnt u sign what ever
they asked to get it...could it be that
down the line u will come up with some other
excuse to why u are owed more money????

u opened this thread...

07-28-2002, 08:18 PM
Forgive me for adding my opinion to this thread. Over the past week I have been drawn to this board the way many are drawn to road accidents. Being an occasional visitor to beautiful Eureka Springs, it saddens me to see the nasty underpinings being laid bare here on this BBS. Several posters have made it their raison d'etre to malign and belittle almost every successful entity in this city. How very sad!
I also have a funny little pecadilo to share. It Seems To Me http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif that if a person who is deadset to prove another's worth (or unworth as the case may be)it would behoove them to check their spelling, correct their grammer and try to sound at least half-way intelligent. Just an opinion. It would make me take them more seriously, wouldn't it you?

[This message has been edited by gayle (edited 07-28-2002).]

All About Love
07-28-2002, 08:28 PM
I can assure you that Positive Idea's Eureka Springs Tourist Center certainly does bring LOTS of tourists to town.

My web site is hosted by them and I ask each and every couple how they found me, so I know exactly how many tourists they generate through their ESTC site for my business. These people aren't just coming here to get married either. Most of them have never been here before and I recommend lodging, restaurants, attractions, and shopping for them. I know exactly how many of my weddings are generated from my web site through PIM'S ESTC.

Those who have found me often have already booked their lodging and it is almost always from the ESTC web site and info by phone from Karen. I might add that these people also refer my services to friends who come here and spend more money in town.

Maybe if you had your business web site with PIM's you would see an increase in whatever your business is.

Kim Yonkee
07-28-2002, 10:37 PM
I think Jan answered the questions that were posed to me. If not, I'm sure someone will let me know. But, if the point is actually to peck at PIM until we bleed, my dears, we simply must improve the method!

As practically everyone knows, I am from the west... the wild west...land of look 'em in the eye, shoot straight, a man's word is his bond, just shoot 'em when they cheat at cards, rope 'em, hang 'em and burn down their ranch when they try to steal your cattle. You know? The West. I'm sure that most of you have seen it all in the movies.

My natural inclination is to behave according to the dictates of my ancestors. However, I have a lot of Southern-born friends who have tried their best to assimilate me into the dominant culture. There are still some things I just don't Get. But there is one unfailing rule that I understand to the very core of my being, and here it is:

When you call someone a lying, cheating, lazy, worthless scumbag, this comment must be IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES either preceded or followed with the words, "God love her," or "Bless her heart."

The appropriate terminology is something like, "That Kim, bless her heart, she's a lying, cheating, worthless, lazy, capc-screwing, Eureka victimizing, postcard sending scumbag. God love her."

I'm not hearing this, people!!! All you imaginary nameless people out there, this means you! If we were on the East Coast, you could wrap us in a burlap bag, throw us in the pond and see if we sink. Here, we have different rules and, like most born again anythings, I am quite the stickler about following the rules. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

A side comment: [i]What do you think, Jan? Is anybody going to answer your question about why we have to jump through burning hoops while invisible people with invisible web sites have no problem getting paid? (Quick! Somebody call Robert Kalina! The money and the product have disappeared! Actually, maybe ol' Simon did have to sign a forced confession to get paid ... but he signed it in invisible ink.) All that paper we've given 'em is obviously clogging up a landfill. This burning hoop thing is exhausting. Wouldn't it be a lot more comfortable if they'd just shoot at our feet and yell "dance?!" At least we understand that system. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/wink.gif

Really, folks, all we want to do is collect our final payment and go away. We've been paper trailing for going on 60 days now, and the excitement of "what new madcap thing will they come up with next?!?" has waned. I want to put the CAPC behind me and think of them all with fond memories of a valuable lesson learned. Like we said the LAST time we went through this, "Just a divorce ... no alimony. No child support. No visitation." Just go to your good ... elsewhere. That's all we ask.

I know how much time this silliness has consumed here at PIM. So how much time has it consumed down at the CAPC office? Surely ... surely!!! these people can think of something else to do. If Advertising and Promotion isn't it, maybe they could learn to make crafts with commonly available office supplies? Whatever. Anything.

At the moment, the internet line item is way over the originally approved budget and on it's way up from there. ("Originally approved" is the key term here. "Budgets" are like water ... ever moving, ever flowing...) Forget the internet drama for a minute. As of the last financials, the auditorium has a $66,000 operating loss. That's not renovation. Money IN is just a whole lot less than salaries & other expenses OUT. Not to mention the fact that they've just committed one tenth of the entire CAPC annual budget to a single Thursday night in December.

Please! You people really have a LOT more imporatant things to worry about than endlessly messing and fiddling with our tired little contract payment. Bless your hearts.

07-29-2002, 07:13 AM
My web page was designed by PIM, I’ve been up, running and in business for 6 weeks, almost fully occupied since then and every single booking has come as a Chamber of Commerce referral, not one booking from PIM - YET. I’m still waiting for the CAPC to post my information. This is no critique of PIM or the CAPC, it’s just the way biz is working for me right now, this month, and I appreciate the Chamber for their hard work on our behalf. I have also been following the PIM/CAPC battle very closely.

I WAS at the last CAPC meeting, heard the “evidence” and from my understanding of the backup documents presented and from experience, there is no doubt, the CAPC seems to owe PIM the past due amount. Period. Regardless of my opinion or anyone else in friggin Eureka Springs or on planet earth or beyond, regardless if the CAPC really does or does not owe PIM money, the vote has been cast, in session, on record, on air and that is the end of the matter. It’s now legal guys, you can’t undo it.

DITTO KIM - my sentiments exactly. I’ve tried to stay silent about this stupidity but, as a business owner here I’d much rather see Barbara and the rest of the CAPC working on the 2003 campaign than clamoring over some lousy 7K+ bill. Anyone paying the slightest bit of attention to this subject over the months or possessing a modicum of intelligence can determine the veracity of PIMs claim for payment without calling an attorney and without the benefit of a high school diploma for that matter. This is simply a Gordian knot of personal vendettas on a battlefield of winning for the sake of winning only. This isn’t about what’s good for the city or for its citizens. Come on guys and girls put it behind you and get busy on something productive.

As JL said at the commission meeting, Barbara has a large post-it on her desk that reads “2003 campaign”. THAT 2003 AD CAMPAIGN is the only thing BKD should be concerning herself with right now. Not “protecting” the city. Future ad work, here forward, is what every business owner is investing in - it is where your tax dollars should be working. And I really doubt Barbara took it on herself to undertake this last bit of legal maneuvering. She’s an employee of the city not it’s gatekeeper. I think someone over there ought to let Barbara off the hook and let her go back to work for the taxpayers.

Kim Yonkee
07-29-2002, 07:33 AM
Hey Lucinda ... I'm glad the Chamber is working for you. I show you went on line at the ESTC on 7/16. Still, almost 2 weeks and no bookings is an as-yet unheard of result. Give me a call at 2401 and let's figure out what the deal is so we can fix this. I'm just checking my public whipping status, but I'm about to head to work. http://www.geekfest.com/ubb/smile.gif

07-29-2002, 07:34 AM
And while I’m on the soap box I swore I’d leave under my bed, maybe someone here can enlighten me.

If my 72 year old mother in Oklahoma, or my friend in LA, or Jo Blow in Bumfart Egypt searches on Yahoo for “Eureka Springs” and finds us there, DOES IT REALLY MATTER if he calls up eurekasprings.org, eurekasprings.com, or the chamber site as long as he books a room, plans a trip or is otherwise induced to visit this city and thus spends money here courtesy of the web? I just don’t get why this berg has 3 websites of which the city pays for 2, and has paid for 1 three times over. In other words WHAT THE HELL IS THE CAPC DOING AUTHORING A WEBSITE ANYWAY?

If I were God of Eureka THAT would never have happened in the first place way back when the first God of Eureka (whoever that was) ordered the very first website (whenever that was). And I’ve been an E-Commerce babe from the beginning of E-commerce.
Eureka Springs is the client here. Her success from a web presence is based upon collecting viewers or “aggregating eyeballs” and having 3 competing sites dilutes the integrity of each site. Now you cannot blame PIM for this state of affairs – they were here first. It would be absurd to think the Chamber should go – most people in the US think of “Chamber of Commerce” first when contacting a city and don’t have a clue about a CAPC. I think we all know that PIM ain’t going anywhere.

Gigantic waste of money the CAPC website, in my opinion, that I’d rather see go into print, marketing, radio or on television.

ALSO, someone please tell me – Kim, Jan, someone at the CAPC. Does the CAPC own its own SERVERS or is the website hosted off-site ??

07-29-2002, 07:52 AM
Thanks Kim, As you know - I didn't get MY act together until late in the season so the Chamber was referring sans webpage before yours was up. I was directing customers to a cheezy page I'd slapped together on msn.groups so guests could see pics. We've been lucky, we fill a niche here, lake property that welcomes kids, so bookings haven't been that difficult. Off-season does worry me a bit, to say the least. I'll call later. C

Kim Yonkee
07-29-2002, 08:06 AM
Well OK, just one more answer then I really must go...

Round one of CAPC web site (1996-1997) was actually a contract with KWG (ad agency) to rent the use of the name eureka-usa.com. (part of the ESTC site) They just needed to have some web presence that could be advertised in the print, TV, radio they were doing. The ESTC site was already active for a couple of years, getting traffic. They felt that it was more efficient to hop on to an existing promotion instead of rebuilding the wheel. In 1997, KWG bought the eurekasprings.org domain on their own recognizance and hired Aristotle to build it. Round one of CAPC drama ... another long story that ended up with a bunch of business owners carrying a petition to fire Aristotle, re-hire PIM.

Round two, in 1999: At the time the original ORG site was re-built by us, the Chamber didn't have a web site. The commission asked us then, "Does the CAPC need a web site at all," and we said, "Yes you do because the ESTC site is a members-only promotion and there are some people that have web sites that aren't a part of ESTC."

We wrote a really long, thick, dull proposal (accepted May, 1999) that recommended that the CAPC web site be a central repository of all resources in Eureka Springs from whatever source. One specific recommendation was that they did NOT re-create the wheel. The concept of the site, as proposed, was supposed to be a unification of all promotion from every source (which is why the now-so-worrisome com site info is included), mechanisms for handling media, publicity, PR, ticket sales, ... all things that are done in multiple, remote locations but which could be consolidated into a single network with the CAPC/City as the most global, appropriate entity to do so; customer service and direct encouragement of ES visitors to visit. Instead of re-creating another copy of the existing com site, phase two of this was supposed to be adding features like net to phone, server push, etc., etc. It's a really long proposal, but I have a copy if you want to read it.

Political dramas, commission changes, staff hiring all intervened in the plan. And no, the CAPC doesn't own their own servers. The web site is hosted off-site.

Now everybody is at work except me, so I really better go. Have a great day all!

07-29-2002, 08:37 AM
Thank you All About Love!! I don’t know why I didn’t think of this sooner.
All of you who appose paying our PIMPS please chime in.

When you are planning a vacation do you.

(a) Plan the trip .by Serfin’ the www.? (http://www.?) Checkin’ out lodging, restaurants, recreation etc. before your departure? Or
(b) Just tell the family we’re going to Someplace in Kansas and take off?

Well if you picked (b) this would explain why you have no understanding of the services provided by PIMPS and no apparent reason for the continuing lack of respect for the services their web site offered to vacationers. How could you possibly have an opinion on the work they did? Which by the way is not even in question. So I do not understand why some of you keep harping on it.
I would like you to just pretend you are planning a vacation for your family, Choose a place that you’ve heard of but not sure exactly where it is
Okay, now after you’ve planed your trip through your local phone books. TV ads and newspaper articles, and called the chamber of your target destination and wait for them to mail you some brochures. Make some long distance calls to check on room rates and locations you know all that kind of stuff. Or you could even call a travel agent to get the info for you. Ask them the method they use to get the info they will charge you for..
Okay now, let’s go surfin’ everybody surfin’ now, and see how most people plan their vacations now days.
PIMS provided services for Eureka that fact is not logically disputed.
PIMS deserves to be treated with as much respect as any business with men running it. But for some reason the ladies are expected to graciously sign a legal document realizing that no other company has ever had to sign this before in order to receive due payment.
If someone wanted to play this card, I can see how it could be played.
I am ashamed of all of you narrow minded, witch hunters that can not believe that a group of women could actually run a business worth taking seriously. They must have something up their sleeves the Vixens. They are a little pushy and opinionated for your taste are they? Is there really a reason to make these girls beg for the money they earned, big boys? This just keeps getting worse. I really hoped we were past that in Eureka I guess that red neck still shines through. The more I think about this the angrier I get. And no thank you sir. I don’t need a hanky. I’ll not burst into tears if you don’t agree with my understanding and I don’t expect any of you to understand it if you have never been discriminated against. So, SHUT THE HELL UP!!
(Excuse my language Sweetness& Light)
And yes,. I know the person who presented the document for Kim to sign was a woman.
A woman that was doing what she was told just like a good girl should. Now why don’t these other girls do what they are told? Don’t they know who’s in charge? Who do they think they are, businessmen?
Also, this Golden rule Bull-oney that was explained to me differently then I remember learning it as a child, (“Those who have the gold make the rules” version.) Is this something that I am supposed to just accept if I want to live, work and pay taxes in Eureka? Well, I will not. and have NO respect for anyone who would.

[This message has been edited by soulself (edited 07-29-2002).]

Joyce Zeller
07-29-2002, 09:25 AM
I thought "King" was only her middle name?

Kaye Miller
07-29-2002, 08:18 PM
Well, does this mean that Eureka Springs has been "protected" by BKD and the CAPC from the PIMP's for another day??? Whew, I can sleep good tonight!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL What a bunch of crap. Pay the ladies what you owe them!!!!!

And, seemstome, as for the commission members voting/not voting if they have "private business with pims"...let's not even go there. As in, I HAVE THE DECIDING VOTE AS TO WHEATHER OR NOT MY SISTER GETS A $30,000.00/YR. position on the CAPC staff and I VOTE YES!! Gettin' the picture here???

Lucinda, I agree with you on the gigantic waste of money for the "new" website. Keep in mind this has been in the works since ll/0l. Several of us tried to question that but it really did not matter. Some did it hiz way, did it behind closed doors without the full commission's knowledge. But then the commissioners turned around and voted to put the same people back in. Appointed hiz nominee out of 33 applicants. Is there any wonder this crap is still going on??? Just gives a person the warm fuzzies.

We are not counting on the CAPC and have had our page with PIM about a month now and are tracking with a coupon. Lots of traffic from out of state. Pleased, pleased, pleased! (Thanks girls!!)

And, Royal Darlin', thanks for the definition of a committee.

[This message has been edited by Kaye Miller (edited 07-29-2002).]

Royal Alcott
07-29-2002, 08:53 PM

The questions have not been answered.

The matter of who has been paid how much to do what by the CAPC is not relevant to this issue.

In the purchase of media time and space there are multiple contract requirements (forms)that must be met in order to be paid.

One member of the CAPC finance committee says the money is due for the first two months of service (two years ago?). This is in conflict with what has been posted here.

As far as I know there has never been a problem about paying the web site service before for any reason and the same people are involved now.

The claims of prejudice are smoke.

frumious Bandersnatch
07-29-2002, 11:14 PM
quote: Gayle - "Forgive me for adding my opinion to this thread. Over the past week I have been drawn to this board the way many are drawn to road accidents."

me now sleepy, must go beddy bye, somebody pay the bill and shut the lights out as you leave, please.

07-30-2002, 06:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by frumious Bandersnatch:
quote: Gayle - "Forgive me for adding my opinion to this thread. Over the past week I have been drawn to this board the way many are drawn to road accidents."

me now sleepy, must go beddy bye, somebody pay the bill and shut the lights out as you leave, please.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee Frumious, apparently you missed the point of my post, which, by the way, was directed at others who don't wax as eloquently as yourself. Or maybe I am missing the point of yours?

[This message has been edited by gayle (edited 07-30-2002).]

[This message has been edited by gayle (edited 07-30-2002).]

07-30-2002, 08:06 AM
Oh, I see Mr. Alcott, This is all just a misunderstanding.
That is great news, just standard procedure regarding payment for web site services?
You wrote:

“In the purchase of media time and space there are multiple contract requirements (forms) that must be met in order to be paid.”

So, PIMS just didn’t realize they would have to perform other services in order to receive payment for past service? That’s understandable.
I would have thought the contract requirement forms would be something you would sign before the contract had been fulfilled and the payment past due. Thank you for explaining that to me.
Then the other 2 or 3 web site service providers have signed these contract requirement forms upon contract fulfillment as well?
This is sure great news. .
Those other forms shouldn’t be hard to find. Just incase PIMS wants to stop by and take a look at the forms the other guys signed, They might want to make sure every bodies playing by the same rules. Just to be sure my claims of predacious really are smoke. I hope you are right. You wrote:

“As far as I know there has never been a problem about paying the web site service before for any reason and the same people are involved now.”

Sounds promising, I know you wouldn’t want to see these good people getting pushed around. Thank you Sir.

07-30-2002, 08:13 AM
Great news Kim,
Mr. Aloott and I have come to the conclusion that your problems are over!!
But I’m going to keep my shoes by the door just in case. Let me know if there is anything we can do.

Jan Ridenour
07-31-2002, 02:18 PM
Just wanted to update. We suggested that a mutual release be given to each party (CAPC and PIM) and that it would be a good idea if Eric Huber, the new creative director for the CAPC would come to our office and make sure that everything was on the CD as we promised it would be.

Today at approx. 11AM, Barbara King Dozier, Eric Huber, and Kelly Simon came to our office, and verified that all information and the site at .org that we produced and maintained over the last 3 years was intact and on the CD. All parties have signed mutual releases and verifications.

Barbara brought the checks from the CAPC totaling the amount due.

We now have been paid in full and the CAPC has their CD.

We wish to thank commissioners Simon, Zumwalt, Von Caulil, and Sumpter for their participation and support in getting this matter resolved and paid.

And thank you BKD for you and Eric taking time to come here to finalize this.

As far as we (PIM) is concerned, this matter is now final and closed.

We're busy today with the final prep work for www.flyeureka.com (http://www.flyeureka.com) as the audios start running tommorrow on the airlines.

Positive Idea

Kaye Miller
07-31-2002, 03:59 PM
Thanks for the update. Glad you FINALLY got the monies due you.

Perhaps if Beau and Jon had chosen to come to the office to check things out it could have been settled sooner.

[This message has been edited by Kaye Miller (edited 07-31-2002).]

08-01-2002, 06:33 PM
Congratulations to BOTH parties for sorting this out. On to bigger and better things.

Kim - our "fix" on my webpage made a remarkable difference in just one day. It's amazing what a poor choice in catagories on my part can do to web response. The following day I had 4 calls that originated from eurekasprings.com and they keep coming. Combined with the Chamber, I'm a happy camper. - DANKE!

Royal Alcott
08-01-2002, 07:09 PM

The drama's done.

The contract terms have been fulfilled to the satisfaction of both parties.

No one has any right to inspect any contracts if they are not a direct party to those contracts.

There was never an attempt by anyone to deny payment forever.

What will you do for high horse adventures next?

08-01-2002, 09:26 PM
You are so sweet Mr. Alcott,
It’s not high drama it is just something to get your attention. As I recall you were all … what paper…. what agreement…. what could they have done wrong…. Well now it is resolved. NO THANKS TO YOU MR ALCOTT … Bless his heart!!!!!!! I have been nice to you.. Kiss my big white booty!!!
!I will show you the same respect as you show me Mr. Alcott.
I am not after anything, expect fair treatment for good people, and that is what they got, NO THANKS TO YOU!!!
You may be smarter than me but that doesn’t make you a better human being.!!!

Kaye Miller
08-01-2002, 09:30 PM
Well, Amen to that Soulself!! Sing it loud and clear.

Royal Alcott
08-01-2002, 11:48 PM

You and I and Ms Miller had nothing to do with the settlement or the contract or the negotiations.

None of the invective spewed here had anything to do with a concluded agreement between two contracting parties.

Between us the rest is silence.

Respect that.

08-02-2002, 06:23 AM
Ahh soulself, don’t fall victim to misreading Royal’s posts too. As you said before, you don’t know the man so it is hard to put a face and voice behind the words. When I read his above comment I hear the humor and wit that goes into the typing. “High horse adventures” simply means another wild ride comes to an end. I see nothing written meant to insult or demean you or even belittle the subject. Royal was dispassionate about this topic because it simply didn’t interest him. I suspect that all of the haggling and battling on both sides of the table appeared inappropriate to him. So he boiled it down to its most common denominator – a contractual dispute that would reach an ultimate end sooner or later. Give him that latitude.

However, I will pick one of Royals comments out to disagree with. I do think the public outcry did place pressure on the commission to conclude this mess in a fair manner. Therein Royal, I disagree because I think many commissioners DO participate or at least read this forum and are aware of the sentiments displayed here.

Soulself, I love ya best darling when you are being your sweetest – stay that way. Remember what yer Mamma taught you about drawing more flies with sugar, honey.

08-02-2002, 10:59 AM
You know Lucinda, I do not feel that I have fallen “a victim to misreading Royal’s posts too.” And the only reason I feel half way bad about what I said to Mr. Alcott is that I was trying to stay anonymous and now everyone knows I have a big white booty!!!
I guess I will just have to try not to show it as often in public.
I do not know what “High Horse” means where you come from. But I know what it means around here. I can usually spot a tongue in cheek from a mile away.
I wish we had a little icon like with the smiley faces. Any way, I will get off my high horse so Mr. Alcott will stop
BEATIN' IT (place icon here) I feel like I have been rode hard and put away wet after this adventure. Note the difference in these expressions Lucinda.
And for someone who wasn’t interested he sure ask a lot of questions, which by the way were irrelevant as far as I’m concerned.
But he is so brilliant; I just wish he didn’t have tunnel vision. Bless his heart.
Love ya darlin’ (case closed)