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ArkansawHillbillys
10-28-2003, 03:05 PM
Old Wizard..... It must have been something I wuz drinking. Posted the wrong quote! LOL
Here's the thingy I was asked to post and get feed back on:

Number of physicians in the US: 700,000.
Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year: 120,000.
Accidental deaths per physician... 0.171 (U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services)

Number of gun owners in the US: 80,000,000.
Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) 1,500.
Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

"FACT: Not everyone has a gun, but everyone has at least one Doctor."

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets out of hand.

As a Public Health Measure I have withheld the statistics on Lawyers for fear that the shock could cause people to seek medical attention!



[This message has been edited by ArkansawHillbillys (edited 10-28-2003).]

oldwizard
10-28-2003, 03:29 PM
ArkansawHillbillys,

See, Andy Rooney for President, started by Charles Goodwin.

I guess there must be a need for two seperate topic threads with the same urban legand.




------------------
Glenn Strange

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws." Ayn Rand

DrLewall
10-29-2003, 12:33 AM
Yeah, that one has been around for some time now..wonder how many times it has gone around the world? This is the third time for me in the past 4 yrs

2100
10-29-2003, 07:40 AM
Original to AHs' old joke:

"FACT: Not everyone has a gun, but everyone has at least one Doctor."

Sorry, this isn't true. I, for one, cannot afford a doctor. I believe this is true of 15% of the US population.

just wondering
10-29-2003, 08:02 AM
2100, with 45 million plus people without health care insurance your 15% is FAR off the mark. Did you get this percentage from the AMA? Or did it come from the White House?

ArkansawHillbillys
10-29-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by 2100:
Original to AHs' old joke:

"FACT: Not everyone has a gun, but everyone has at least one Doctor."

Sorry, this isn't true. I, for one, cannot afford a doctor. I believe this is true of 15% of the US population.

2100...well I feel for you then. But then you might be safer than some that do have doctors according to these statistics. And this was not a Joke. It is fact.

I am concerned that you aren't able to receive the medical care you might need though. Usually in Arkansas if a person is below a certain level of income, they qualify for Medicaid which is a program for the less fortunate. A call or visit to the Department of Human Services can get you going on this program. If you know of others that are in the same situation as you are, then perhaps you could pass this information on to them also. I hope this helps.

Have A Great Day!

ArkansawHillbillys
10-29-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by DrLewall:
Yeah, that one has been around for some time now..wonder how many times it has gone around the world? This is the third time for me in the past 4 yrs

Dr....yes I have seen this several times over the years also. However, considering the validity of this message, it amazes me and others that the message is so readily ignored. Since it has been a topic of discussion (AGAIN) in the political realm, I thought it was an appropriate time to bring the FACTS to light....AGAIN. I was asked to post it to see if it is responded too or brushed under the carpet. Lets see if it gets ignored. Ther was no offense intended toward you Doc!

Heretic
10-29-2003, 10:21 AM
What facts, AH?

Old Thing
10-29-2003, 01:35 PM
Death or injury caused by a physician: iatrogenic.
Death or injury caused by a gun: murder.

ArkansawHillbillys
10-29-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Heretic:
What facts, AH?

Read the start of this topic Heretic.

Number of physicians in the US: 700,000.
Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year: 120,000.
Accidental deaths per physician... 0.171 (U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services)

Number of gun owners in the US: 80,000,000.
Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) 1,500.
Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

How can it be made any clearer? LOL

ArkansawHillbillys
10-29-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Old Thing:
Death or injury caused by a physician: iatrogenic.
Death or injury caused by a gun: murder.

Death or injury caused by a physician: iatrogenic. ie; Pronunciation: (")I-"a-tr&-'je-nik
Function: adjective
Etymology: Greek iatros physician + English -genic
Date: 1924
: induced inadvertently by a physician or surgeon or by medical treatment or diagnostic procedures <an iatrogenic rash>

Old Thing...that might float in your world as excuse/reason for deaths attributed to malpractice, accident, or just plain ole poor medical care, but it doesn't float in the real world. I guess the key word you were supporting here is inadvertently? Or have I misunderstood your point here?

in·ad·ver·tent
Pronunciation: -t&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: back-formation from inadvertence
Date: 1653
1 : not focusing the mind on a matter : INATTENTIVE
2 : UNINTENTIONAL
- in·ad·ver·tent·ly adverb

Your NEXT point: Death or injury caused by a gun: murder

Murder? Did I say anything about murder here? Maybe you didn't read the statistical data provided. Here it is again:

Number of physicians in the US: 700,000.
Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year: 120,000.
Accidental deaths per physician... 0.171 (U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services)

Number of gun owners in the US: 80,000,000.
Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) 1,500.
Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188

I think the whole point of the post was to present the facts concerning Accidental death by firearm versus doctor. I am sorry if these facts offend anyone, but I have little control over this issue because it is just that...FACT!

I will agree and concede however there are deaths each year because there are murders that happen. However, I have never seen a gun fire itself. I suppose it could happen, if it really had a mind of its own but I have yet to see a gun with brains. I also know people are murdered each year with swords, lug wrenches, clubs, baseball bats, rocks, needles, ice picks, automobiles, rolling pins, knives, etc... but in each case, there was a human being in control of the initiating action.


[This message has been edited by ArkansawHillbillys (edited 10-29-2003).]

Heretic
10-29-2003, 03:04 PM
AH, is someone trying to take your guns or something? Are you under siege? Do you have a kidney stone? I don't quite understand why you bring this up.

[This message has been edited by Heretic (edited 10-29-2003).]

ArkansawHillbillys
10-29-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Heretic:
AH, is someone trying to take your guns or something? Are you under siege? I don't quite understand why you bring this up.

I'm sorry Heretic...I didn't know I had to have a reason before I could bring someting up in here. However, the reason was simple. In my little circle of friends, policitcal and otherwise, this has suddenly become an issue and I was cornered because of my views concerning not only gun control but also the alarming number of deaths each year because of malpractice. I was reminded of the above statistics, and asked to post them for feedback. Thus, I did so, not only out of curiosity as to how others felt about the comparison of the two statistics, but also because I know both are going to soon be political issues for the upcoming campaigns.

Would you like for me to explain further?
Also I have a few other topics I am curious about. Would you prefer I discuss them with you first, before I post them in here? Just let me know. I wouldn't want to offend anyone!

Heretic
10-29-2003, 03:37 PM
Just struck me as kind of out of the blue, that's all. Usually, a thoroughly debated topic like gun control appears on the board if a headline appears like: "AH Held on Illegal Weapons Charge; Vows To Keep Slingshot Until The End", or something like that. It's hardly a political football in Arkansas. Gun control means being able to hit your target around here! And the comparison to medical malpractice is a bit of a stretch. My bogus meter went off...what can I say?

rhoda
10-29-2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by ArkansawHillbillys:
I am concerned that you aren't able to receive the medical care you might need though. Usually in Arkansas if a person is below a certain level of income, they qualify for Medicaid which is a program for the less fortunate.


That's not exactly right AH. An adult has to be disabled to qualify for medicaid. A child can qualify if the parents are below a certain income level. There are many thousands of adults in AR who are not insured, cannot afford medical care, and are not eligible for medicaid or medicare. Oh, by the way, have a great day!

ArkansawHillbillys
10-29-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Heretic:
Just struck me as kind of out of the blue, that's all. Usually, a thoroughly debated topic like gun control appears on the board if a headline appears like: "AH Held on Illegal Weapons Charge; Vows To Keep Slingshot Until The End", or something like that. It's hardly a political football in Arkansas. Gun control means being able to hit your target around here! And the comparison to medical malpractice is a bit of a stretch. My bogus meter went off...what can I say?

I understand what you are saying Heretic. Thats why "opinions" are so great. Right?

I think the point...that you may be missing here, is not that the comparison is a stretch but rather a FACTUAL finding that says that far more people are killed each year by doctors and their mess ups, than by "accidental" firearms discharge. Thus, rather than trying to ban/control guns, perhaps people should realize that there are other things in this world that are far more threatening to them than guns. I've been told that more people are killed accidently by automobiles each year than by accidental gun discharge. Many of these deaths are a result of young, inexperienced drivers. Rather than ban guns or automobiles, maybe firearms safety training and better driver's education is the answer?

ArkansawHillbillys
10-29-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by rhoda:
That's not exactly right AH. An adult has to be disabled to qualify for medicaid. A child can qualify if the parents are below a certain income level. There are many thousands of adults in AR who are not insured, cannot afford medical care, and are not eligible for medicaid or medicare. Oh, by the way, have a great day!

Rhoda....well if that is correct, and I assume it is since you say it is..that is so sad. Lets try another approach then... I do know that there are some specialists in Arkansas that accept patients on a "sliding scale" based on their income and other varibles. However, I am not sure about family doctors in this community. But since everyone seems so "community" oriented, surely there are doctors around here that would be concerned enough to help. Maybe the Department of Human Services or someone else can help us get a list of those that do this. I will start researching to see what I can find out and perhaps you and others reading this could help in that search. Maybe we can find a way to get some of these people the medical care they need! And Thanks! You Have a Great Day also! *S*

PMilam
10-29-2003, 05:55 PM
AH, I just can't take that information as FACT, since it is a email that has been circulating for several years. Most of the stuff that comes via email is a hoax.

The information that I've found states that 98,000 die each year through medical malpractice. a search of "medical malpractice deaths" shows that most of the information on medical malpractice comes from attorneys.
I have yet to find a national database type site... only ads for attorneys.

Too bad there's no way to calculate the number of lives saved by physicians.

ArkansawHillbillys
10-29-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by PMilam:
AH, I just can't take that information as FACT, since it is a email that has been circulating for several years. Most of the stuff that comes via email is a hoax.

The information that I've found states that 98,000 die each year through medical malpractice. a search of "medical malpractice deaths" shows that most of the information on medical malpractice comes from attorneys.
I have yet to find a national database type site... only ads for attorneys.

Too bad there's no way to calculate the number of lives saved by physicians.

Pat..I think the real point is being missed here. I don't think it was to put down the doctors, but rather to make it clear that there are other causes of death equal too and exceeding those accidental deaths as a result of firearms.

ArkansawHillbillys
10-29-2003, 06:38 PM
Just for the record...I think that the lack of proper medical care for "EVERYONE" regardless of their economic status, is a very sad problem that has faced us every since I can remember. Perhaps the statistics I posted above did originate somewhere other than where I thought it did, so I can understand some qustioning the statistical data. I will try to offer better information with the "source" in the future. In the meantime, here is a little additional reading that does name it's source:

America's Healthcare System is the Third Leading Cause of Death

Barbara Starfield, M.D. (2000)

Summary by Kah Ying Choo

This Journal of the American Medical Association article illuminates the failure of the U.S. medical system in providing decent medical care for Americans.


In spite of the rising health care costs that provide the illusion of improving health care, the American people do not enjoy good health, compared with their counterparts in the industrialized nations. Among thirteen countries including Japan, Sweden, France and Canada, the U.S. was ranked 12th, based on the measurement of 16 health indicators such as life expectancy, low-birth-weight averages and infant mortality. In another comparison reported by the World Health Organization that used a different set of health indicators, the U.S. also fared poorly with a ranking of 15 among 25 industrialized nations.

Although many people attribute poor health to the bad habits of the American public, Starfield (2000) points out that the Americans do not lead an unhealthy lifestyle compared to their counterparts. For example, only 28 percent of the male population in the U.S. smoked, thus making it the third best nation in the category of smoking among the 13 industrialized nations. The U.S. population also achieved a high ranking (5th best) for alcohol consumption. In the category of men aged 50 to 70 years, the U.S. had the third lowest mean cholesterol concentrations among 13 industrialized nations. Therefore, the perception that the American public’s poor health is a result of their negative health habits is false.

Even more significantly, the medical system has played a large role in undermining the health of Americans. According to several research studies in the last decade, a total of 225,000 Americans per year have died as a result of their medical treatments:
• 12,000 deaths per year due to unnecessary surgery

• 7000 deaths per year due to medication errors in hospitals

• 20,000 deaths per year due to other errors in hospitals

• 80,000 deaths per year due to infections in hospitals

• 106,000 deaths per year due to negative effects of drugs

Thus, America's healthcare-system-induced deaths are the third leading cause of the death in the U.S., after heart disease and cancer.

One of the key problems of the U.S. health system is that as many as 40 million people in the U.S. do not have access to healthcare. The social and economic inequalities that are an integral part of American society are mirrored in the inequality of access to the health care system. Essentially, families of low socioeconomic status are cut off from receiving a decent level of health care.

By citing these statistics, Starfield (2000) highlights the need to examine the type of health care provided to the U.S. population. The traditional medical paradigm that emphasizes the use of prescription medicine and medical treatment has not only failed to improve the health of Americans, but also led to the decline in the overall well-being of Americans. Starfield’s (2000) comparison of the medical systems of Japan and the U.S. captures the fundamental differences in the treatment approach. Unlike the U.S., Japan has the healthiest population among the industrialized nations. Instead of relying on sophisticated technology and professional personnel for medical treatment as in the U.S., Japan uses its technology solely for diagnostic purposes. Furthermore, in Japan, family members, rather than hospital staff, are involved in caring for the patients.

The success of the Japanese medical system testifies to the dire need for Americans to alter their philosophical approach towards health and treatment. In the blind reliance on drugs, surgery, technology and medical establishments, the American medical system has inflicted more harm than good on the U.S. population. Starfield’s (2000) article is invaluable in unveiling the catastrophic effects of the medical treatments provided to the American people. In order to improve the medical system, American policymakers and the medical establishment need to adopt a comprehensive approach and critically examine the failure of the richest country in the world to provide decent health care for its people.
Starfield, B. (2000, July 26). Is US health really the best in the world? Journal of the American Medical Association, 284(4), 483-485. Obtain full reprint.

ArkansawHillbillys
10-29-2003, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by rhoda:
That's not exactly right AH. An adult has to be disabled to qualify for medicaid. A child can qualify if the parents are below a certain income level. There are many thousands of adults in AR who are not insured, cannot afford medical care, and are not eligible for medicaid or medicare. Oh, by the way, have a great day!

Rhoda & 2100...... Maybe this will help. I made a few calls and also was directed to this information. From what I am being told there is a Medicaid category for those that are disabled but there is also a category for Medicaid for others. Here is a list of some of these programs with numbers. Also I have been told that someone needing medical care or needing to just see a doctor may be able to go to the County health clinic to get that care but I don't know the details.

I am still trying to find information on doctors in our area that will take someone in on a "sliding scale" according to their ability to pay. Aren't there any doctors or wives taht visit this board that could answer that question for us? Thanks!

Hope this helps:



ARKids First
888-474-8275 (English)
800-482-8988 (Spanish)



ARKids First provides health insurance to children who otherwise might not get medical care. The program offers two coverage options. ARKids A offers low-income children a comprehensive benefits package. ARKids B provides limited coverage for slightly higher income families. ARKids B requires a small co-pay for most services.




Commodity Distribution Program
1-800-467-3663



This program processes and distributes raw commodities donated by the U.S. Department of Agriculture to schools and other eligible recipient agencies in Arkansas that participate in the National School Lunch Program and Summer Food Service Program.




Community Services Block Grant Program
1-501-682-8719



The Community Services Block Grant Program provides funds to support services and activities that are designed to assist low-income families to become self-sufficient. Services are provided through the 16 Community Action Agencies in the state.




Disaster Services
1-800-482-8988




This program provides financial assistance to families affected by state and federally declared disasters that meet income and other criteria.


Emergency Food Assistance Program
1-800-467-3663

This program distributes commodities to food banks, soup kitchens, shelters and other

nonprofit agencies. Donated foods are also made available for Disaster Assistance.


Emergency Shelter Grants Program
1-501-682-8723

The Emergency Shelter Grants Program assists local communities in helping to improve the quality of life for the homeless by providing grants for minor renovations, rehabilitation or conversion of buildings for the homeless, funds for payments of certain operating and maintenance expenses, funds for social services expenses, and homeless prevention efforts.


Food Stamp Program
1-800-482-8988

The Food Stamp Program provides food assistance to eligible households to cover a portion of an eligible household’s food budget. Benefits are distributed through Electronic Benefits Transfer (EBT). In addition to food assistance, the program provides food stamp recipients with nutrition education, employment & training, and work experience.


Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program
1-501-682-8726

The Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program provides financial assistance to approximately 60,000 households each year to help them meet the costs of home energy. It also offers weatherization services and case management activities designed to encourage households to reduce their energy costs and need for financial assistance. For information, please contact this unit or your local Community Action Agency.


Medicaid

1-800-482-8988 for information on eligibility and enrollment
1-800-482-5431 for information on services covered by Medicaid

Medicaid reimburses health care providers for covered medical services provided to eligible needy individuals in certain categories. Eligibility is determined based on income, resources, Arkansas residency, and other requirements. Covered services also vary among categories.



Categories are summarized below under two headings, Aged, Blind & Disabled Categories and Children & Family Categories.


Medicaid Aged, Blind and Disabled Categories

*

Individuals aged 65 and older who meet income; resource and other requirements are eligible for full Medicaid coverage.
*

Individuals who are determined blind or disabled individuals based on Social Security Administration criteria who meet income, resource and other requirements are eligible for full Medicaid coverage.
*

Medicare Savings Program provides limited coverage to supplement Medicare recipients. Coverage varies based on income, ranging from payment of the Medicare premiums, deductibles and co-insurance for low-income individuals to paying only a portion of the Medicare Part B premium for individuals with higher incomes.
*

Long Term Care - Individuals who are residents of nursing homes may qualify for Medicaid if the care in the facility is medically necessary and they meet income, resource and other criteria.
*

ElderChoices covers individuals age 65 and older who would be eligible if they were in a nursing facility, but choose to remain at home.
*

Alternatives for Adults with Physical Disabilities covers individuals who are physically disabled and between the ages of 21 and 65 who would be eligible for Medicaid if they were in a nursing facility, but choose to remain at home.
*

DDS Alternative Community Services covers individuals of any age who are determined to be developmentally disabled, who would be eligible for Medicaid if they were in a nursing facility, but choose to remain at home.
*

Working Disabled provides full coverage to disabled individuals who are working. Individuals with lower income pay the normal Medicaid co-pays. Individuals with higher income pay higher co-pays.


Medicaid Children & Family Categories

*

Needy children under age 19 who meet income, resource and other requirements are eligible for full Medicaid coverage under the ARKids program.
*

A parent or other caretaker relative of children under age 18 with an absent, disabled or unemployed parent who meet income, resource and other requirements is eligible for full Medicaid coverage
*

Needy pregnant women who meet income, resource and other requirements are eligible for full Medicaid coverage
*

Pregnant women with income up to 200% of Federal Poverty Level may be eligible for limited coverage if they meet certain income, resource and other criteria, including prenatal, delivery, postpartum and conditions which may complicate the pregnancy. Coverage continues through the pregnancy and until the end of the month that the 60th day postpartum falls.
*

Family Planning provides limited coverage that includes family planning services only to women of childbearing age and who also meet income, resources and other criteria.


Refugee Resettlement Program
1-800-482-8988

This program assists newly arrived eligible refugees to assimilate into the American way of life. The program offers financial and medical services to eligible refugees for up to five years.



Transitional Employment Assistance (TEA)
1-800-482-8988

TEA is a time-limited assistance program to help needy families with children become more responsible for their own support and less dependent on public assistance. In addition to monthly cash assistance, employment-related services are provided to parents, including job-readiness activities, transportation assistance, childcare assistance, and other supportive services so that the parent can engage in work or education and training activities.



Weatherization Assistance Program
1-501-682-8722

This program installs energy conservation materials and appliance in the homes of 1300 low-income families annually to lower the utility bills. Materials generally installed include insulation; duct sealing, weather-stripping and caulking doors and windows, replacement of broken windows and health and safety measures that are required prior to weatherization.

leadwolf
10-29-2003, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by 2100:
Original to AHs' old joke:

"FACT: Not everyone has a gun, but everyone has at least one Doctor."

Sorry, this isn't true. I, for one, cannot afford a doctor. I believe this is true of 15% of the US population.

The problem with your observation is that if you go to the Emergency room, even if you don't have a Regular DR., you will be assigned a DR. if even for that one visit hence you have a DR.